Did the Marines shoot NM Garands

[StockDoc]

Did the Marine shoot NM Garands or did they shoot Garands that were modified to their specifications for matches?

[Phil McGrath]

Yea, they fired NM M1 Garand. I guess the major difference was they were carefully/better assembled. Prior too the move too Quantico I'm pretty sure West coast rifles were built at Barstow Ca and East coast rifles were done at both Philadelphia and Albany Ga. When the big shop closed in Phillie, the East and West coast shops were consolidated at Quantico.

[StockDoc]

Thanks, Phil

[2111]

The guy that could give you the best information regarding M.C. match rifles would be Gus Fisher. Gus use to post quite a bit on this forum, though I haven't seen a post from him in quite some time. Gus was a 2112 MOS ( Rifle and Pistol Team Repairman), (RTE Armorer) and has a wealth of knowledge regarding Marine Corps match rifles. He spent 23 years as a RET Armorer ending his service in 1997 as Shop Chief of the RET Shop. In 1974 Gus went through OJT at the Rifle Team Equipment Repair Shop at Quantico. He states that "in those days we rebuilt and built new replacement NM M14's on the order of about 1,100 rifles per year for the Division's and Marine Corps Matches." I would think that in the late 1950's and early 1960's the RTE Armorers were doing much the same with the M1.

[Phil McGrath]

The guy that could give you the best information regarding M.C. match rifles would be Gus Fisher. Gus use to post quite a bit on this forum, though I haven't seen a post from him in quite some time. Gus was a 2112 MOS ( Rifle and Pistol Team Repairman), (RTE Armorer) and has a wealth of knowledge regarding Marine Corps match rifles. He spent 23 years as a RET Armorer ending his service in 1997 as Shop Chief of the RET Shop. In 1974 Gus went through OJT at the Rifle Team Equipment Repair Shop at Quantico. He states that "in those days we rebuilt and built new replacement NM M14's on the order of about 1,100 rifles per year for the Division's and Marine Corps Matches." I would think that in the late 1950's and early 1960's the RTE Armorers were doing much the same with the M1.

I asked Gus along time ago about the Marine NM build centers, and that's what he passed on too me.

[Griff Murphey]

I can tell you that my friends who were 4th Recon USMCR team shooters in San Antonio '67-'71 mainly shot match M-14s but still had some match M-1s. They were all still '06 unlike the AF. I recall one of the shooters was separating from his wife and she took all of his guns including his Marine Corps ones which put him in a difficult position but the FBI reclaimed all of them including his personal ones. I remember that Col. Bill Dickman shot an M-1 quite a bit, maybe out of nostalgia.

I could not tell you if they were straight NM or not but I do remember they had shiny urethane type stock finishes

[Phil McGrath]

I can tell you that my friends who were 4th Recon USMCR team shooters in San Antonio '67-'71 mainly shot match M-14s but still had some match M-1s. They were all still '06 unlike the AF. I recall one of the shooters was separating from his wife and she took all of his guns including his Marine Corps ones which put him in a difficult position but the FBI reclaimed all of them including his personal ones. I remember that Col. Bill Dickman shot an M-1 quite a bit, maybe out of nostalgia.

I could not tell you if they were straight NM or not but I do remember they had shiny urethane type stock finishes

Talk about nostalgia, Col. Walsh continued too fire the 03 for some time after the M1 came along as well.

[StockDoc]

this is good stuff-thanks

[Cosine26]

I would wonder if the USMC rifle teams used SA built NMM1's regularly. I would expect them to have used RTE Center USMC prepped Rifles. These rifles, while excellent and accurate, are not NMM1's by definition.
The USMC was ,I believe, the first service branch to start Post WWII competitive rifle shooting and were the first to start working on turning the M1 into a Match Grade rifle. I believe that they gave their first demonstration on improving M1 accuracy to representatives of the US Army in 1948. According to Gus Fisher (previously mentioned) the USMC armorers developed their own techniques which they considered to be better than the efforts of SA.
During the period that the M1 was the "service" rifle, the army, the navy and the USMC all developed there own techniques and many "Match Conditioned" rifles were produced-but they were not NMM1's by definition.
IMHO

[JimF]

. . . . . During the period that the M1 was the "service" rifle, the army, the navy and the USMC all developed there own techniques and many "Match Conditioned" rifles were produced-but the were not NMM1's by definition.
IMHO

Quite right, Cosine . . . .

And one of their own improvements that I encompassed in my "accurized service grade" M1 a long time ago, was to peen the splines of the barrel in such a way as to make the rear ring of the gas cylinder contact the barrel ONLY at the six o'clock position . . . sort of tilting it UP at the rear!

This was a development by the Navy! --Jim

[Phil McGrath]

The 360* clearance was a Navy trick by Charlie Frazier and Don McCoy, and per Gus the Marine style was gas cylinder contact at 4-8 o'clock.

[Phil McGrath]

I would wonder if the USMC rifle teams used SA built NMM1's regularly.

I doubt it, SA NM rifles would have been made available too civilians first, Service Rifle Teams supplied there own equipment. However if a Service Member chose too go too the Nationals on there own they would have drawn a rifle and been issued ammo on the line just like anyone else.

[2111]

NM AFPG marked barrel.jpgPhil, I have wondered about the AFPG rifles as some of them also have the NM stamp near the AFPG. Do you think these could have been NM rifles rebuilt by the Air Force or maybe the A.F. armorers had NM stamps. Gus did mention in one of his posts that the "Marine Corps Rifle Team Armorers also had "N" and "M" stamps" and that they would " apply the stamp to barrels that were not so marked, but otherwise met the NM criteria from air gaging." He may have been talking about the M14 as this was not specified in his post.

[Phil McGrath]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]30282[/ATTACH]Phil, I have wondered about the AFPG rifles as some of them also have the NM stamp near the AFPG. Do you think these could have been NM rifles rebuilt by the Air Force or maybe the A.F. armorers had NM stamps. Gus did mention in one of his posts that the "Marine Corps Rifle Team Armorers also had "N" and "M" stamps" and that they would " apply the stamp to barrels that were not so marked, but otherwise met the NM criteria from air gaging." He may have been talking about the M14 as this was not specified in his post.

Gus was from the M14 generation when it really started too take off and hit high gear, with that said I know he knows his way around the Garand and as a Jr 2112 at the time he would still have had direct contact with more than a few of the Marine NM M1 shooters, from back in the day. Remember it took the Commandant of the Corps too put his foot down and tell the Marines the M14 was the current Service Rifle and that is what your going too shoot in Competition. Springfield Armory closed in Apr 68 completely bringing a end too there NM support. I'm sure there were still plenty of M1 barrels, both std. 65 and NM marked 65's and the newer 77's still new in inventory too be had. After SA closed everything was cleaned out and shipped too Rock Island and that's where the NM comptroller was moved too as well.

Remember Match shooters are a hard headed bunch, the Marines had a rifle that was known too give predictable accuracy in the M1, it had been well sorted out at this point in time. But like anything NEW that comes along the NM M14 wasn't well received and they really had too start over with what worked and what didn't for rifle's accuracy development. Gus has said, it took a few years for the M14 too catch up too the M1 in the accuracy department. The Marine's never caught up too the Navy's 7.62mm M1 until they went too double lugged M14's then it became a shooter's contest of skill. Same story can be said today as was the switch from the 03 too the M1, the M1 too the M14, and the M14 too the M16. History repeating itself over and over.

Is it possible that the Service Rifle teams marked there STD. barrels NM after gauging? I think so if and when they had the time too do so, it sped up the build process when the barrel was graded too some extent and was pronounced "Good to Go" ready too install. The Navy and AFPG rifles that I've seen when the CMP first brought them out at the Phoenix Garand Games were not all marked with the NM but all the AFPG stamp, the AFPG used smaller letters on there barrels and there was a good mix and match of barrels used. Nothing was wasted some were the std. 65 barrels, NM 65 barrels, 77 barrels a few 3/66 Navy barrels with AFPG stamped between the G/C rings as well. There was also a few with the rare Rock Island 7.62mm barrels some AFPG stamps were clear too see and read others were faintly done and not so easy. Also of note, not all of the AFPG had the polished underside of the chamber either, some were done and others not, same deal for the ball and detent rear sight. The Navy MkII Mod1 rifles didn't have any added markings on there rifles that they were not born with this was for both A and B grade rifles and contrary too popular belief not all of the A grade MkII Mod 1 NM rifles had Fuller Plast done too there stocks either.

My own personal opinion of the Navy MkII Mod 1 NM rifles that are marked with the A or B in the stocks pistol grip is that the stock was delivered too the Navy from Marine stores at Albany or Barstow's rebuild centers, the only physical difference between the A and B grade was the fitting of the hooded rear aperture. As many O-66 and O-67 rebuild rifles have the same A or B in there stocks pistol grip as well too denote what rebuild center it was done at... Coincidence?

According too Gus, all Service Rifle teams had at one time or another budget issues and sometimes parts just couldn't be had. This would explain how Navy 3/66 barrels were discovered on AFPG rifles and why the A.F. later went with there own 7.62mm barrel from Rock Island. The trade and barter system at work. Remember SA made the 3/66 barrel on a limited run for the Navy's NM program. SA had sent all there machinery too Rock Island for long term storage and the A.F. didn't get there own 7.62mm tube until after June 1969.

Sorry for the long winded post.

P.s. Here is some trivia for you, What Man was the only shooter too shoot a perfect score at Camp Perry, ever? and it wasn't with a rat gun.

[StockDoc]

What is a "rat gun"?