"Lend Lease" M1s?

[dave]

I have seen a picture of Brit Troops in Korea armed with MI's. It may be in Scoot Duffs book. So they were being used, to some extent into the 1950's by the Brits!

[AlanD]

I seem to recall that the "Lend Lease" program also may have included a 100 year lease on the island of Diego Garcia.......the value of that acquisition may have to enter into the discussion of forms of payment and ownership of said firearms, ships, etc etc.

Clearly the US never tried to grab the Garands, when they left England.....or when at Kleins, in Chicago.

This deal pre dates Lend Lease and is known as the "Destroyers for Bases Agreement" . In brief the UK gave freehold some naval bases to the USA and leased some others for 99 years in exchange for 50 four stack destroyers. If you Wiki this term you can get plenty of info on this.

All this happened in 1940 early 1941 which is 75 years ago which means in less than 20 yeas the lease's will be up. Be interesting to see what happens then.

The Garand's you see British troops armed with in Korea we supplied in theater and were not purchased by the UK or from left over stocks the UK had from WW2. Regards

AlanD
Sydney

[AlanD]

The 48,000 or so M1s that were sent to Great Britain in World War II are usually referred to as "Lend Lease" rifles. I got to thinking the other day that they may actually be "sales" rifles. A little bit of background:

1) In addition to the M1s about 60,000+ Remington M1903 rifles got sent over to the UK, as well. Most of these (if not all) were NOT Lend Lease, as the UK had invested about a million dollars in "start-up" costs when Remington was tooling up to produce these rifles. Great Britain was, in effect, "paid back" with rifles when the Remington M1903 went into production.

2) Under the terms of Lend/Lease, the receiving country, when the war was done, had to do one of the following with material they had received through this program: 1) pay for it; 2) destroy it; 3) bring it back.

3) There are numerous photos of the UK dumping over the side Lend Lease equipment, such as aircraft and vehicles; large numbers of Lend/Lease ships were returned to the US, where they were generally scrapped. Obviously, Great Britain was not in the financial position after WWII to pay for any of this stuff.

Just to keep the argument straight, I'm NOT talking about M1s or other rifles given or loaned to countries AFTER WWII, such as the Greeks.

4) In the early 1960s, relatively large numbers of M1 Garands were sold through places as Interarmco, Kleins and other businesses; it is conceded that most of these were the early Garands sent to the UK.

Where I am going with this is I would suggest that these M1 rifles were PAID for, much as were the M1903s and most of the M1917 rifles. If the rifles were paid for, the "owning" country was free to do what they wanted with them. In other words, they were Sales rifles, NOT Lend/Lease.

Just wondered if anyone has or has seen any documentation for the M1 rifles sent to the UK?

That's

Rick

I have not seen any documentation in the National Archives in London about the 38,001 Garand rifles that were supplied under Lend Lease. Personally I think these would have been forwarded to allies.

What I have seen is numerous references to 30,000 Garand rifles. 25,000 were supplied to the Air Ministry and so would have ended up with the RAF. I have seen very detailed instructions on completely stripping a Garand in an official RAF armorers manual. The remaining 5,000 were supplied to Combined Operations. I believe it is these rifles which Interarms purchased - they bought 25,000 of the British government. These ended up in Guatemala, Haiti and Indonesia. I think these 30,000 were paid for and are separate to the 38,000 odd that were supplied under Lend Lease.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

[John Sukey]

Just an add. Te British call it lease lend since they provided access to some of their colonies in return.

[dave]

[The Garand's you see British troops armed with in Korea we supplied in theater and were not purchased by the UK or from left over stocks the UK had from WW2. Regards

AlanD
Sydney[/QUOTE]

Why? did they arrive in Korea un-armed? Just wondering. While I did meet some Brits in Korea (spent the afternoon sloppin beer at a NAAFI (sp?), I was stationed across the road from a Canadian Med. Unit. Never saw any rifles they used however. Being AF, we had MI Carbines.

[AlanD]

No, they didn't arrive in theater unarmed. For whatever reason it was decided that some units would be equipped with American equipment including small arms. I dont know why this was so.

[PhillipM]

No, they didn't arrive in theater unarmed. For whatever reason it was decided that some units would be equipped with American equipment including small arms. I dont know why this was so.

I've seen pictures.

I think at the time the UN was American policy writ large and the US provided the arms and ammo. The UK was broke.

[Johnny P]

"Table LL-14-Quantities of selected items included in War Department Lend-Lease shipments, 1941-1945, United States Army in World War II Statistics, Office of the Chief of Military History, Special Staff, U.S. Army, Historical Manuscript File, pp. 28-29, RG 156, WNRC."

For anyone with the desire to look it up, this is where Charles Clawson found his quantities of Lend-Lease small arms shipments.

[firstflabn]

The 38,001 number is for the British Empire (excluding Canada), not the UK alone. If there were any Garands provided to the dominions directly or delivered to them through the British, they would have been included in this total and any additional quantities supplied in-theater would not have shown up at all. Table LL-14 is a summary, so details necessarily get lost. It helps to read the notes, not just glance at a table.

I'm a huge admirer of Clawson's efforts, but this points to the problem of people taking secondary sources as the last word on any subject. It's easy to lose context, leave out important distinctions, and misinterpret facts.

I'm certain the answer is residing in a file folder in College Park (the notes mention L/L data compiled on monthly forms which themselves relied on data from shipping tickets), but no one takes the question seriously enough to undertake the work of finding it. So, incomplete as it is, 38,001 is the only answer available - but using it requires some explanation to avoid misleading the neophyte. Maybe it needs something like the Roger Maris asterisk (61*).

[Johnny P]

And really, he was noting Lend-Lease shipments to the various allies. Just a table in his book on the history and development of the 1911/1911A1 pistol rather than delving into the history of Lend-Lease itself.

[firstflabn]

Well said, Johnny. In trying to draw out some of the fine points, my post came across a bit harsh towards you. It didn't come out the way I originally thunk it.

Keep up the good work. I don't know if we'll ever catch 'em, but pretty sure we're getting closer.

[can14]

Canada had m1 Garand and carbines which the government paid for and issued. Much of the Canadian stuff was dumped into the ocean after ww2. My Dad spent months working on a Barge in Prince Rupert BC
dumping everything in the ocean, these dumping grounds were marked on charts. All US and Canadian equipment was dumped. In the mid 60s the Armory was decommissioned and all the guns,ammo and parts
were dumped also

[Johnny P]

Canada received 8,014 M1 Rifles, 230 M1 Carbines, and 1,515 1911A1 pistols via Lend-Lease. After the war a quantity of the 1911A1 pistols came back into the U.S. via England with post 1954 British commercial proofs.

Prior to the Lend-Lease Act England established the British Purchasing Commission in the U.S. which purchased weapons from U.S. Manufacturers. At Colt they literally bought everything on the shelf. Virtually all the weapons were in U.S. calibers, so most the weapons were first shipped to Winchester Repeating Arms where they were packed with the proper ammunition and shipped to England.

This is one of the Model 1911A1 pistols Lend-Leased to Canada, showing the Canadian broad-arrow C property mark. The barrel, slide, and receiver show the post 1954 British commercial proofs indicating the pistols went to England before being sold commercially.

[Chaz]

???

So, is this Lend Lease or Sales? Except for a few handling marks it looks like it just came off the "boat". Yes, it has a British proof mark on barrel.

[Johnny P]

So, is this Lend Lease or Sales? Except for a few handling marks it looks like it just came off the "boat". Yes, it has a British proof mark on barrel.

Yes it is, and a beauty. The red band on the front hand guard is normally gone, but traces of yours remain. Don't remove it. As mentioned previously, for the most part the rifles sat in a warehouse from 1941/42 until the British government released them for sale in the late 1950's. Is yours proofed in the chamber area of the barrel, or out on the barrel between the gas cylinder rings?

During the proofing process crossed sceptres with an initial on the left and right side of the X formed by the sceptres were applied. Can you make out those initials, with the right side most likely being a B.