Has Anybody Heard of This Rifle?

[usmc69]

Springfield
1903
30-06
Serial # 355979
Sub Target
1 of 300
$1199.99

A friend saw this in a gun shop near his home. Any ideas as to which if any 03 it may be?

[louis]

This is working off my memory but I believe they were mounted on artillery pieces. Not sure what type of artillery but they didn't have a stock. But they were removed at a later time and converted back to rifles. Now like I said I'm going by memory but maybe someone has a better explanation. I believe they were stamped as 1903-A2

[m1903rifle]

Not listed in SRS so it might be hard to prove unless there is a list of them somewhere:

355973 04/18/31 USMC
356132 12/31/29 AMERICAN TRP SHANGHAI VOL CORPS

[louis]

Here it is. Go to 1903.com look up 10 oddball 03 variants and not only is it listed but there is also a photo of the marked receiver.

[usmc69]

Thanks for the info. Will pass this along.

[Ironlip]

Here it is. Go to 1903.com look up 10 oddball 03 variants and not only is it listed but there is also a photo of the marked receiver.

Louis, I went to 1903.com and got a company called Weingarten that manufactures jewelry and insignia, some of it military, but I can't find anything about 1903's. Am I just not searching it properly?

[Rick the Librarian]

I tried it and got the link all right:

http://m1903.com/odd1903/

[Ironlip]

I tried it and got the link all right:

http://m1903.com/odd1903/

AH HAH! Got to have the m in front of 1903. I remember these guys. Great site! Thanks Rick

[louis]

Thanks for fixing that Rick

[butlersrangers]

Maybe this model 1903 Springfield was altered for use on a Cumming's Sub Target Gun Machine?

Brophy's, "The Springfield 1903 Rifles", shows this system/device, which was a 'shooting simulator' in use before and during WW1. It was used on adapted Krags, Lee-Enfields, and 1903 Springfields.

"Sub Target" refers to a miniature target that was needle punched by the apparatus, while the adapted rifle was aimed and 'dry-fired' at a 2nd distant target. (The expensive, $800 plus, training machine worked kind of like a pantograph).

The machines used in the U. S. used a mechanical/cable linkage. The machines used by Britain and Canada used a battery, trigger activated switch, and solenoid.

These machines were later simplified and eliminated by the use of compact devices that did not require permanently altering and destroying the usefulness of a rifle.

strm-'03-Mech..JPGstrm-post-ed.jpgsub-target gun-Ca-1904ed.JPGofficialhandbook08publ_0084.jpg

[butlersrangers]

Sub Target Device - First photos shows a Krag barrel that once had the fixtures mounted for a sub target gun machine and stock alteration necessary. Last photo shows cheaper more compact system that came into use.

STGM-attachment_points.jpgstk-cutout-krag-ed.jpgsub-target device-0.jpg

[Rick the Librarian]

I've got a box of 30-40 rounds which were designed to be fired from a sub-caliber Krag through a 3" seacoast gun. As my interest also lies in coast artillery, I found it interesting.

[Kragrifle]

I was fortunate to have acquired a Krag rifle with the mounting fixture attached. I have never seen one of the machines but would love to find one someday.

[butlersrangers]

To state the obvious, the "Sub Target Gun Machine" and a "Sub Caliber device" are entirely different items with different purposes. (The sub caliber device attached to an artillery piece to allow cheap artillery training and practice with rifle ammo).

The OP mentioned "sub target", which suggests a rifle fitted for use on the Cumming's Sub Target Gun Machine. This system used no ammo. It did allow the 'Operator' to freely hold and support a partially counter-balanced rifle and hone his sight picture and trigger pull skills. The machine held a miniature or 'sub target' that was aligned with a larger distant target. The Operator/"Shooter" went through the action of 'Dry Firing' at the distant target. The consistency of his 'mock shots' was recorded (and scored) by pin pricks through the Sub Target.

'Kragrifle', it would be very interesting to see photos of your Krag rifle with the attached fixtures. This 'shooting simulator'' is often shown in blurry pictures in some classic Arms Books. I imagine many readers have often not understood or confused devices.

I too would love to see one of the machines. Hundreds were made in the U. S. and under license by Wilkinson in Great Britain.
Prior to 1920, they were all over the World in military academies, military schools, New York Public Schools, and on some Royal Navy Ships.

I'm sure in some basement or scrapyard one is gathering dust and rusting. It has probably been mistaken for an Industrial Machine.

I doubt there is anyone alive, who ever got to use one. It would be great with increased awareness, if one came to light and was restored.

strm-knl.JPGstrm-krg-knob&link.JPGstrm-krg-mech-ed.jpg

[Kragrifle]

Besides the target device I have 4 different Krag sub caliber devices. I need to figure out how to load photos.