Questions on two stamps on R.I. M1903

[cplnorton]

Yeah I really didn't think it would have vise marks. Not a 1918 dated barrel.

That star seems to be a special meaning. But it's very sporadic and rare, that the pattern is hard to decipher.

But honeslty if I encountered a stock with a star stamp on it, probalby one of the first things I would look for is that milling cut.

P246, look for a PM.

[cplnorton]

P246, your messages are full. Can you clean out some space sir.

Hey by morbid curiosity, does it have a number stamped on the side of the front sight blade? Like a .40 on it, or a number around that? It might be something you didn't notice because of the front sight cover. But if you shine a flashlight in there you should see it.

This was a Marine trait that was in a very small window of time. But with a Hatcher hole in that reciever and a early barrel, it might be there.

[cplnorton]

The first pic I showed probably wasn't a good one to show as that stock is beat to crap. But I've seen several different styles of them out there, and what that means I'm not sure.

But this is a nice clear one on a friends rifle. When you look at this one with glass, you could really see the tooling marks.

[Richard H Brown Jr]

Well, still looks to me like a impact crater from the bolt handle.

Anyone willing to take a *new* 03/03a3 wood stock and put a barreled action in, and cycle the bolt group a few thousand times, hard?

R. Brown

[cplnorton]

Yeah I can see your point of view, and I am always the first to say I could be wrong. Especially when you trying to piece together traits of rifles that have been floating around for 70 plus years and had lots of hands on them. I've seen a few that I don't think there is any chance they were from a bolt hitting, but maybe I'm wrong. My wife says I'm wrong a lot. lol

[p246]

Well, still looks to me like a impact crater from the bolt handle.

Anyone willing to take a *new* 03/03a3 wood stock and put a barreled action in, and cycle the bolt group a few thousand times, hard?

R. Brown

Lol Richard I'm out on that one. Once again you could be right its hard for me to decide with only seeing one.

[p246]

P246, your messages are full. Can you clean out some space sir.

Hey by morbid curiosity, does it have a number stamped on the side of the front sight blade? Like a .40 on it, or a number around that? It might be something you didn't notice because of the front sight cover. But if you shine a flashlight in there you should see it.


This was a Marine trait that was in a very small window of time. But with a Hatcher hole in that reciever and a early barrel, it might be there.

Cpl.IMG_1491.jpgIMG_1492.jpg Norton I had to carefully remove the front sight protector to see. Yes it has the .40 over a 2. It also has four punch marks on the back of the sight base. Photos attached.

[Richard H Brown Jr]

Batteries are dead in my digital camera, so I can't get close up of the ding in the stock and the curved junction on the bolt sleeves to post. 6 days or so till the new ones get here. Just try finding a 8yr old camera's batteries.

R Brown.

[p246]

Batteries are dead in my digital camera, so I can't get close up of the ding in the stock and the curved junction on the bolt sleeves to post. 6 days or so till the new ones get here. Just try finding a 8yr old camera's batteries.

R Brown.

If you got 8 years out of a digital camera your doubling my luck.

[Richard H Brown Jr]

Don't use it much. Canon Powershot SD1100IS. Does go thru batteries. But the generic replacements from other mfr's are cheap now. Just something to carry.



RHB

[Richard H Brown Jr]

Cpl N wrote earlier:

The first pic I showed probably wasn't a good one to show as that stock is beat to crap. But I've seen several different styles of them out there, and what that means I'm not sure.

But this is a nice clear one on a friends rifle. When you look at this one with glass, you could really see the tooling marks.


Did you look at the bolt sleeve down where it transitions from the squared off to the rounded part of the bolt handle? There's a half circle transitition point on the bottom, where the edge of the flat meets the rounded area of the bolt handle. I noticed on my 03 that the transition has a sharper edge to the half circle than the one on my 03a3. Which is why I'm saying the ding might be from bolt manipulation.

Practicing over years with an empty rifle to cycle the bolt to get the 5 rounds off fast, and then reload.

I'll post pics of my 03 and 03a3 down by that point on the stock, and a closeup of the transition point on the bolt handle for both. To show why I think it's a ding from the bolt handle.

R. Brown

[cplnorton]

Richard, you are totally right on the bolts and I know exactly what you mean. And I do think some that you see on stocks are just from dents from the bolts. But I just think there are some too that are machine cut, as when you really look at them especially with a magnifying glass, you can see tooling marks. And there is space between the wood and bolt, like the wood has been relieved.

But no your logic is 100% sound, and I do understand and agree with what your saying. I've just seen some mentions in documents about removing wood around areas of the rifle where any metal touches, and I do wonder if this might have been something that was part of that process.

But no, you make very valid points.

[cplnorton]

Norton I had to carefully remove the front sight protector to see. Yes it has the .40 over a 2. It also has four punch marks on the back of the sight base. Photos attached.

Yeah I have no doubt now. For a very short time right before WWII, the Marines would use numbered front sight blades on their rebuilds coming from the Philly Depot. They are rare to find today as they never show up on wartime produced Marine barrels, and wartime produced barrels are the most commonly seen ones on Marine rebuilds. But with yours having the early barrel and the Hatcher, I thought their might be a chance.

.40 was the standard one that came on every rifle from Philly, but other sizes were used to change the zero of the rifle.

Tim Plowman is the one who found this at the Archives, so he deserves full credit for finding this. But not long before this numbered sight document was written, the Marines had bought the tooling and fixtures off SA to drill the Hatcher holes. So if a rifle shipped from Philly with a numbered sight, it should also have a hatcher hole. They had also just bought a electopencil Machine to start to number bolts. So I really do think it had a numbered bolt at one time and was just been swapped.

From reading the docs, the numbered sights were not around long, and it only seems they did it maybe a couple years. By the time the war starts, they seemed to have stopped.

I've seen mention of numbered sights in SA docs, but those were a much earlier time period and don't match this rifle at all. I have also seen that 2 on the front sight of other Marine rifles with numbered sights.

I know it's easy to change a front sight, but we just found this doc and I don't think anyone knew anything about this to even fake one. So to me, I have zero doubt that is a Marine rifle now.

[p246]

Thanks Cpl. Norton for that explanation.

[Richard H Brown Jr]

I've just seen some mentions in documents about removing wood around areas of the rifle where any metal touches, and I do wonder if this might have been something that was part of that process.

CPL N:

Sure you're not refering to shooters taking rasps and files and carving wood out of the stock where the barrel touches the wood, so as to make the barrel "free-floating"? Leaving only the trigger guard screws holding the receiver in the stock, and the lower and upper bands holding the hanguard in place.

I've read accounts where that was done by competive shooters on their 03's.

All you 03 owners, how about taking a look in the barrel channel and seeing if there is any indicaton of "woodworking" besides the original fitting of the barreled action to the stock. I do realize that arsenal rebuilds after WW2 would have swapped out the *adjusted* stocks for as-issued stocks with minor fitting. But there should be a few stocks that got past the rebuild inspectors, or 03's tht were sold off before they could go thru arsenal rebuild.


R. Brown