Rock Island '03 ser# question

[glockshot]

I am looking at a pristine RIA '03,ser#3875xx.I checked the production dates and ser #'s and they show a total of 346,000 made. I just saw a 414000 # on Gunbroker. I am confused by these numbers being higher that total production ser#'s listed.Any help would be muchly appreciated.Thanks,Steve

[p246]

John or Rick can go into detail but I'll spout off what little I know and stand to be corrected. Springfield used a bunch of left over Rock Island Receivers some already roll stamped. I believe a lot of them were used in 1928. If the Rock Island roll stamp and serial number was already on them they used them as is. This started after 400,00 but I do not know the actual serial number date off the top of my head. If you go to vishooter and look at John's Rock Island serial number page you will see 400,000 range serial number Rock Island 1903s begin showing up with Springfield barrels. That is why. Rock Island serial numbers went well up into the 400,000 range, just at some point they were built up by Springfield.

[Rick the Librarian]

The 346,000 number is based on some old and obsolete information about Rock Island production. The last verified Rock Island serial number was 430,742.

As p246 said, a relatively large number of Rock Island receivers and other parts was sent to Springfield in the mid-1920s. John Beard has stated that from about s/n 375,000-405,000, about 50% were used with Springfield parts; from about 405,000 until 430,742, the percentage used was significantly highly, I believe John said 75-85%.

I'm assuming the rest were used to assemble complete Rock Island rifles, or kept as spare parts at RIA. John can probably correct or clarify what I said.

[glockshot]

That certainly accounts for the higher s/n range. Do these Springfield made rifles command any higher prices or are any
More collectible than a RIA made rifle ? I appreciate the information,Thanks a lot..Steve

[Rick the Librarian]

If the rifles are original/correct to their assembling in the late 1920s. Like a lot of other M1903s, many were rebuilt and/or refinished.

Keep in mind there are several varieties of these hybrids:

1) Rock Island receivers with Springfield barrels and parts

2) Springfield receivers made with serial numbers in the 1,290,000-1,299,000 range with Springfield barrels and parts. These used finished, but unmarked receivers or forgings from Rock Island

3) Rock Island receivers with Springfield serial numbers with Springfield barrels and parts. These are the most rare - supposedly about 1200 of these receivers were marked. I was fortunate to find one a few years back (see picture).

Keep in mine to be a TRUE "hybrid", the receiver has to be in the 375,000-430,000 range and have a Springfield barrel in the 1926-1929 date range; any earlier RIA with a Springfield barrel simply has a replacement barrel.

These are quite fascinating to me, and if I was starting out earlier, I'd be tempted to concentrate on these. If you want to read about these interesting rifles, C.S. Ferris has a chapter on them in his book on Rock Island M1903s.

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[glockshot]

The one I am looking at has the RIA receiver and the barrel is a marked RIA 1909. It has a 1 1/2 throat and tight muzzle. The stock is nicely cartouched GAW I believe,and proof marked.The owner says he thinks it is worth $ 1300-$3000,I truly was speechless with that.I politely told him that I'm not sure where he was looking,but the $700-900 range is more in the range .Given my description,am I close to the price range ?
I really appreciate all the information.Thanks,Steve

[p246]

Well if it was owned by Alvin York maybe, but with that serial number, cartouche, and barrel date your price range is fair. His range is not only high but $1700.00 in range. More wishful thinking or trying to get you to drop 1300.00 on it.

[Rick the Librarian]

I would agree -- more like the lesser range in value/worth.

[Kragrifle]

A little out of my element but that inspector shows up in a lot of rebuilds. I believe the "correct" cartouche on the high number (>400,000) Rock Island rifles will be SADAL often with two firing proofs.

Rick, if I see your receiver correctly on my phone this is a RI receiver in the 125k range? I thought these rifles usually were stamped Springfield often with incomplete letters as the receivers started out as unnumbered, but already hardened RI units. What cartouche is on your rifle ?

[Rick the Librarian]

The rifle is one that had the receiver stamped with the Rock Island markings at RIA but no serial number. The serial number is 1,293,257 which is a SA serial number in the late 1920s range, which was added when the rifle was completed at Springfield.

The rifle is probably not original. There is a "ghost" stamp on the stock but no other marking (GG stock) with two stock bolts. The barrel is a SA 12-28 with curiously faint markings. A high hump hand guard and a case-hardened I5 (1912-16, according to JB's bolt charts) bolt.

It obviously was worked on at some point, but, as these receivers are fairly rare I'm not complaining!!

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[Fred]

Neat

[Kaliman]

Hey Steve. Good seeing you at J&E today. Lemme know if you have any 03s walk through the door

[twh]

image.jpgHere is a picture of the second type Rick referred to and you can see serial number wise they are not that far apart.

[Rick the Librarian]

I believe John Beard maintains a data base of these numbers, if you'd want to pass along the serial number to him.

[glockshot]

Hey Steve. Good seeing you at J&E today. Lemme know if you have any 03s walk through the door

It was great talking guns with you as well.I will indeed keep you in mind.