USMC Winchester A5 Springfield Marine Mount Rifle in France 1917

[1903fan]

I'd honestly be highly skeptical of any WWI era sniper in private hands and even in some museums.

In November 1929 Brig General Samuel Hof issued a Ordnance Bulletin for the care and maintenance of Ordnance small arms and equipment. Stating the following concerning the care and maintenance of rifles fitted for telescopic sights: "Telescopic sights, M1908, M1913 and Winchester 5a having been declared obsolete, rifles fitted with these types of sights will be modified as funds become available and placed in storage as rifles, caliber .30, M1903. Modifications will consist of removing the bracket and plugging the holes in the receiver wall."

In spring of 1942 the USMC QM placed a substantially large order for replacement parts (primarily with Sedgely) to rebuild 20,000 receivers into complete rifles (for obvious reasons considering the time). In that list it noted that there were also over 500 "receiver assemblies [note not complete rifles] drilled for telescopic sights" and only "receiver assemblies 3 fitted for telescopic sights."

There were rifles fitted with A5 telescopic sights that were used by the Marines early in the PTO (particularly the Raider battalions), that is not in question. However, one particular example popped up (I believe on this forum a year or so ago.) And the receiver SN was in the post WWI range.

As far as WWI examples surviving (I'm talking in the condition, parts and variation issued during that conflict).

I'm not saying it's not possible. But what I've seen at the archives, most data points that during the post WWI demobilization and Great Depression era documentation(and there's a lot more than these two examples) that they were taken out of service after being declared obsolete and cannibalized for parts or turned back into service rifles (obvious reasons, funding is significantly reduced and these sniper rifles are considered obsolete). So as far as looking for an example (as shown in the photographs) without proper documentation I'd be more skeptical that it would be a genuine example.

Of course I'm sure some slipped through the cracks. But how to tell a genuine example from a very convincing fake (and there are plenty of those), would be next to impossible in my opinion, (without paperwork.)

Great response, makes sense why we don't see them! Thank you for your efforts

[Smokeeaterpilot]

I did not see anyone post a photo of their own one of these rifles, but are there any in museums? There are some in the book "U.S. Marine Corps Scout Sniper World war II and Korea" by Peter R Senich. It seems like you guys would like this book!

I'd honestly be highly skeptical of any WWI era sniper in private hands and even in some museums.

In November 1929 Brig General Samuel Hof issued a Ordnance Bulletin for the care and maintenance of Ordnance small arms and equipment. Stating the following concerning the care and maintenance of rifles fitted for telescopic sights: "Telescopic sights, M1908, M1913 and Winchester 5a having been declared obsolete, rifles fitted with these types of sights will be modified as funds become available and placed in storage as rifles, caliber .30, M1903. Modifications will consist of removing the bracket and plugging the holes in the receiver wall."

In spring of 1942 the USMC QM placed a substantially large order for replacement parts (primarily with Sedgely) to rebuild 20,000 receivers into complete rifles (for obvious reasons considering the time). In that list it noted that there were also over 500 "receiver assemblies [note not complete rifles] drilled for telescopic sights" and only "receiver assemblies 3 fitted for telescopic sights."

There were rifles fitted with A5 telescopic sights that were used by the Marines early in the PTO (particularly the Raider battalions), that is not in question. However, one particular example popped up (I believe on this forum a year or so ago.) And the receiver SN was in the post WWI range.

As far as WWI examples surviving (I'm talking in the condition, parts and variation issued during that conflict).

I'm not saying it's not possible. But what I've seen at the archives, most data points that during the post WWI demobilization and Great Depression era documentation(and there's a lot more than these two examples) that they were taken out of service after being declared obsolete and cannibalized for parts or turned back into service rifles (obvious reasons, funding is significantly reduced and these sniper rifles are considered obsolete). So as far as looking for an example (as shown in the photographs) without proper documentation I'd be more skeptical that it would be a genuine example.

Of course I'm sure some slipped through the cracks. But how to tell a genuine example from a very convincing fake (and there are plenty of those), would be next to impossible in my opinion, (without paperwork.)

[1903fan]

I did not see anyone post a photo of their own one of these rifles, but are there any in museums? There are some in the book "U.S. Marine Corps Scout Sniper World war II and Korea" by Peter R Senich. It seems like you guys would like this book!

[1903fan]

Who all else in here is authors? I would like to make a list of new books to read, maybe even a magazine if they can be found. Think it is great we have famous authors in here! Is Bruce Canfield or Scott Duff by chance one of the screen names? I enjoy there books.

[Emri]

I have an editor for a magazine interested in publishing my research on the Winchester A5 snipers. So I'm saving a lot of my info for the article.

Be sure and let us know when that happens !! I don't buy magazines off the rack but sometimes make an exception, like John Beards article on Red Star Remingtons a few years ago.

Emri

[1903fan]

I'm sorry I didn't know you were an arthur I just thought you and A5 Sniper were trying to figure this out still. I was just trying to figure out the providence for the fifth and sixth Marines getting sniper rifles and what can be proven they got. Have a nice day.

[cplnorton]

I see what all of you are now, the Mann rifles went to the War with the fifth and sixth Marines and the other rifles were sent to France to a an army base. They would then have gone to fifth Marine brigade when they got there. Makes good sense... thanks gentlemen!

I'm not saying this at all. The WRA rifles were shipped to the Marines in France over a period of time in 1917.

I would prefer not to comment on this in detail. I have an editor for a magazine interested in publishing my research on the Winchester A5 snipers. So I'm saving a lot of my info for the article.

[1903fan]

I see what all of you are saying now, the Mann rifles went to the War with the fifth and sixth Marines and the other rifles were sent to France to a an army base. They would then have gone to fifth Marine brigade when they got there. Makes good sense... thanks gentlemen!

[1903fan]

No Winchester says they shipped the Marine rifles they mounted A5 scopes on to a Marine unit. They state the unit was located by a Army camp that repaired them for the MArines in the AEF. Winchester does not name the camp. But the Marine documents do. The Marine documents say the name, and say they took the telescopic rifles to this camp for repair and to sight them in.

The Marine unit was fifth or sixth Marines?

[CPC]

Thank you Steve.

I don't know honestly. What you can do is look in the catalog and do keyword searches and see if you come up with anything. Here is the catalog.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...view=1up;seq=7

I always had a researcher pull all of these photos at the archives, so I'm not sure how to do it online here. But Andrew did post some instructions on this post. Also Andrew did post instructions on how to do on the CMP forum and gunboards. If you have trouble with it, I'm sure Andrew would help. I haven't had time to try to navigate it yet so I'm a beginner on it as well.

[cplnorton]

OK I am like lots on here and just like to browse and read, and have had a hard time following some of this but this helps. So you think Winchester sent all their sniper rifles for the marines to the army base and the army was the ones to use them. That makes sense with the marines being under army command.

No Winchester says they shipped the Marine rifles they mounted A5 scopes on to a Marine unit. They state the unit was located by a Army camp that repaired them for the MArines in the AEF. Winchester does not name the camp. But the Marine documents do. The Marine documents say the name, and say they took the telescopic rifles to this camp for repair and to sight them in.

[Promo]

lol, I posted it as you typed it.

So the cat is out of the bag now.

Two stupid with one idea, right ... ?

Steve once came up with that question to me to check my A5 scopes for that ... turned out of my probably 10 Winchester A5 scopes at least two of them had this modification. And since every scope was purchased independent from each other, it must have had some reason.

[1903fan]

The easiest argument someone could make on where the photo was taken in France, would have been at St. Nazaire France. If it was taken there it would have been taken earlier in 1917 than my Dec 1917 date.

The tents and even the uniforms of the Marines at St Nazaire, would match the photos really well. Here are a few pics form St Nazaire France. Photo's are courtesy of Steven Girard.








Even though St Nazaire would be the most logical choice for someone arguing this. I sort of have a hunch it wasn't taken there. The reason being, the photos in that block in the AEF book are later and none show a location as being taken in St Nazaire. They were taken in training further inland in France.

The other thing that gets me. WRA states the Marine A5 rifles ended up going to a unit close to an Army repair Depot in France. WRA doesn't name the Army camp. But the Marine documents do. The Marine documents name the Army Camp, and say that the Army repaired all their A5 rifles that broke and kept them serviceable for the Marines. Also the Army had a long distance range set up at this Camp that the Marines could sight in their A5 rifles and get target practice with them. These early Marines were not school trained snipers like later in the war. So from everything it says, it sounds like these Marines were literally shooting the Teslescopic sighted rifles for the first time at this Army camp.

The most interesting fact, this picture is a ARMY signal Corps photo, and this Army Camp where the Marine A5 rifles were serviced and sighted in, was one of the major headquarters for the Army signal Corps. So I have a hunch the Army Signal Corps took this pic of a Marine who was probably there sighting in one of the new WRA rifles.

Other than just the generic France location, I doubt any official documentation will be found that says the exact location of where it was taken. I just have a hunch it was taken by the Army Signal Corps at this Army Camp in France. But I can't prove it. It's just what makes the most sense to me.

He was posing for this photo and not sighting in on anything, as the A5 sight in that location, wouldn't have a good sight picture. Also if the A5 scope wasn't modified in a way, the bolt would hit the A5 scope and you had to push the scope forward to cycle the bolt. The Marines fixed this later on by modifying the A5 scopes in a way that the bolt would clear. So that might be as well why the scope was pushed forward as well, to cycle the bolt.

But as far as location, a very safe argument would be St Nazaire. I just have a hunch it might be at that Army Camp. I just can't prove it.

OK I am like lots on here and just like to browse and read, and have had a hard time following some of this but this helps. So you think Winchester sent all their sniper rifles for the marines to the army base and the army was the ones to use them. That makes sense with the marines being under army command.

[cplnorton]

This has been a great thread to follow. Arrrgh My wife’s uncle knew Mr Niedner and lived fairly close to him...no comment on the scope parts I could have purchased... however, going back to the pics. Are there any photos of USMC aviators in the photo catalog?

I don't know honestly. What you can do is look in the catalog and do keyword searches and see if you come up with anything. Here is the catalog.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...view=1up;seq=7

I always had a researcher pull all of these photos at the archives, so I'm not sure how to do it online here. But Andrew did post some instructions on this post. Also Andrew did post instructions on how to do on the CMP forum and gunboards. If you have trouble with it, I'm sure Andrew would help. I haven't had time to try to navigate it yet so I'm a beginner on it as well.

[CPC]

This has been a great thread to follow. Arrrgh My wife’s uncle knew Mr Niedner and lived fairly close to him...no comment on the scope parts I could have purchased... however, going back to the pics. Are there any photos of USMC aviators in the photo catalog?