Air Service Rifle....kinda

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  • mhb
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2009
    • 420

    #16
    PhillipM:

    It is possible that I misread the serial number, though I seem to remember there were 6 digits there, as originally posted - in any case, you definitely have a low-numbered 1903.
    As to why SA and RIA didn't immediately change materials in the receiver and bolt, and go on from there, I think there are at least 2 good reasons:
    1. There was nothing wrong with the low-carbon steel they were using - the problems were in the processing. The double heattreatment allowed continued use of the original material and resulted in the strongest and smoothest of the 1903s - better in both respects than Nickel Steel. Casehardening of such steels can produce excellent rifles, and it is worth noting that millions of 98 Mausers were made of essentially the same material as used in the 1903, but, because they were differentially casehardened, and apparently under better controls, they never suffered from the problems experienced with the 1903.

    2. At the time the correction was made, SA was producing over a thousand rifles a day. They also had very large stocks of the materials on-hand, representing a large investment. By altering the forging controls and heattreatment, they were able to use the same materials to produce a rifle better than it had ever been, and avoid complete shutdown of both production facilities. In wartime, nickel becomes a very important strategic material, and, even had it been decided to change-over to that material during the war, there would have been unavoidable delays in obtaining the steel. Further, the nickel steels are more expensive, another factor in wartime production.

    As to why SA didn't stop production, and why some SHT receivers were assembled after the decision was made to change the processing, I think the scale of production accounts for that. With over a thousand rifles being assembled every day, there were much larger numbers of receivers (and other parts) in various stages of production all over the Armory's facilities. Since they didn't stop production and destroy everything made but not yet completed, it would have been surprising, indeed, if some such intermixing had not occurred.

    If, as you say, the theory is not your own, but very well informed - whose is it, and on what information is it based?

    I believe that every one of the topics we've discussed here is covered by Hatcher, and I don't know of any other source document which contradicts what he had to say.

    mhb - Mike
    Sancho! My armor!

    Comment

    • Cecil
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2009
      • 482

      #17
      Does anyone have the number of failures verses the number of SHT rifles produced? Also is there any statistics on DHT failures?
      Last edited by Cecil; 05-26-2013, 10:45.
      sigpic

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      • mhb
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2009
        • 420

        #18
        Cecil:

        Not really. Hatcher reported on a number of failures which were brought to Ordnance's attention up to 1929, IIRC. There are one or 2 rifles in that list which MIGHT have been high numbers. And Hatcher did not say that all known failures up to that date were listed in his book.
        Unfortunately, there is no all-inclusive list of in-service failures of 1903 rifles, and certainly none covering failures after the rifles were dropped from service inventories.
        It is true that Ordnance regulations require serious incidents with weapons and ammunition to be reported for investigation, and that there undoubtedly have been failures with 1903 rifles which Hatcher did not list, but I have never seen any source for such original documents.
        Finally, Hatcher made it clear that Ordnance did not make any of its conclusions or recommendations based merely on the failures he does discuss, but took them as an indication that there was a serious problem with at least some of the rifles themselves.
        The series of technical investigations Ordnance then undertook resulted in the changes in manufacture and the recommendation that all of the low-numbered rifles should be declared 'unfit for military service'.

        mhb - Mike
        Sancho! My armor!

        Comment

        • chuckindenver
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2009
          • 3005

          #19
          any weapon can, has and will fail, new or old, its not that it will fail. its how it handles a failure.
          you would be supprised on what modern weapon has had more failures then any other.
          if it aint broke...fix it till it finally is.

          Comment

          • Cecil
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2009
            • 482

            #20
            You can't stop there....surprise me.
            sigpic

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            • chuckindenver
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2009
              • 3005

              #21
              the AR15 variants have had more recorded failures then any other small arm ever made, and even so, nobody ever deems them unsafe, ect..when i first stated to research weapons failing a few years go, i just thought maybe it was do to the large amount of unskilled kit builders...then to find out, many have failed during combat,LE and in the hands of very experianced shooters.
              Attached Files
              if it aint broke...fix it till it finally is.

              Comment

              • chuckindenver
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2009
                • 3005

                #22

                id say it was Bobs handloads
                Last edited by chuckindenver; 05-26-2013, 04:08.
                if it aint broke...fix it till it finally is.

                Comment

                • PhillipM
                  Very Senior Member - OFC
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 5937

                  #23
                  Remington 700 with unsafe trigger or a pregnant guppy glock?
                  Phillip McGregor (OFC)
                  "I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthur

                  Comment

                  • Weasel
                    Very Senior Member - OFC
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 3696

                    #24
                    Originally posted by chuckindenver
                    the AR15 variants have had more recorded failures then any other small arm ever made, and even so, nobody ever deems them unsafe, ect..when i first stated to research weapons failing a few years go, i just thought maybe it was do to the large amount of unskilled kit builders...then to find out, many have failed during combat,LE and in the hands of very experianced shooters.
                    I agree with you on this one chuck. I just wonder how may M1 failures there were, no one wants to talk about those.

                    Comment

                    • chuckindenver
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 3005

                      #25
                      Remington 700s trigger was really overdone..more of a lawer issue then a real failure, most were from dirty rifles or home trigger adjusters,
                      Glocks are close behind the AR platform.
                      personally i think the issue the fails the AR is th lack of gas excape, with a case head failure, it usually blows the magazine out, and blows the barrel off,
                      iv seen lowers survive a failure.
                      i have seen a couple M1 Garands that have failed personally, and countless pictures and a couple you tube videos of Garands with failures as well.
                      my point of this was that any and all weapons have had failures...its how they handle a failure. the SHT 1903s didnt handle failures very well,
                      one of the reasons i tell people to NOT shoot a SHT 1903, and if they do , to use only factory ammo,
                      modern factory 30-06 is loaded pretty tame, basicly geared at the biggest POS that a person would shoot, so the lawers have made sure that Remington, Federal ect, keep those loaded pretty tame.
                      too many unknowns with surplus and handloads, we would all like to think were careful reloaders..but all of us have made a mistake, and id bet a great number including myself have had a case head or primer fail..
                      for years iv been curious about weapons failures, why, how, and how the weapon survived ect...every single type of small arm made has had failure at some point, some more then others, and some handle a failure better then others, granted the AR platform failures in number are more likely do to the amount of said weapons, but facts are facts..the M16, AR platform has had more failures then any other small arm built, the reasons why and how can likely be argued for days...
                      the only issues i have here, is others posting the argument that SHT 1903s can be fired.. with small posts from Hatchers notebook. keep in mind these statements can and are seen by thousands of people world wide, and telling someone else to fire a weapon withknown issues, is not a good idea.
                      personally, i fire my SHT 1903s and take alot of safety in order, and wont do so with other people at the range, however.. i would never recommend anyone ever fire a Single Heat Treated 1903 ever... if they make the choice to do so...then so be it.
                      some lessons in life really dont need to learned.
                      if it aint broke...fix it till it finally is.

                      Comment

                      • chuckindenver
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2009
                        • 3005

                        #26
                        i have many pictures of failures.. some are handload issues, some are case head, bore obstructions, and some from bad steel
                        Attached Files
                        if it aint broke...fix it till it finally is.

                        Comment

                        • Marine A5 Sniper Rifle
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 7450

                          #27
                          Wow! We get to argue about this issue again? Just how many of you have analyzed Hatcher's work? In some ways, it is a testimonial to the strength of the LN 03.

                          mb might want to reevaluate his statements. There weren't many receiver failures, and some of those that did fail included HN's.

                          I did my research, and as a result, I now shoot all my LN 03's.

                          jt
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                          • mhb
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 420

                            #28
                            No...

                            I don't think so.

                            As I said, Hatcher and his co-workers did not simply take the fact that some of the rifles had failed as proof positive that they were no good.

                            They believed that the failures indicated there was a problem.

                            They then went to considerable effort to determine exactly what the problem(s) might be and how they could be fixed.

                            All of this is covered in his book, as are the findings and conclusions they arrived at.

                            At the end of their work:

                            "The Board Found:

                            (1) That low-numbered receivers are not suitable for service use in their present condition.
                            (2) That means have not yet been determined for making such receivers suitable for service use.
                            (3) That is considered impracticable, if not imposssible, to re-heat treat these receivers in such a manner as to make them serviceable.

                            The Board recommended that the receivers be withdrawn from the service and scrapped.

                            After considering the proceedings of the Board, the Chief of Field Service, Brigadier General Samuel Hof, on February 7, 1928, made the following recommendation to the Chief of Ordnance, which was approved as a policy:

                            'Our ammunition is getting worse and accidents may be somewhat more frequent. On the other hand, some of these early rifles have been in use for many years and undoubtedly some of them have worn out several barrels. I do not think the occasion merits the withdrawal of the rifles of low numbers in the hands of the troops until the rifle is otherwise unserviceable. On the other hand, I do not think we are justified in issuing such rifles from our establishments. I recommend that we instruct our Ordnance establishments to no longer issue rifles with these questionable receivers, that such rifles be set aside and considered as a war reserve and the question of the ultimate replacement of the receivers be deferred. When rifles are turned in from the troops for repair the receivers having these low numbers should be scrapped.' "

                            I'm not sure where your researches may have lead you, but cannot see anything in Hatcher to give you your apparent sense of security. If you have other sources of information Hatcher did not discuss, or are able to factually contradict the information he did provide, or show where he and his co-workers failed to properly assess the nature and scope of the problem, perhaps you will be good enough to share such information with us.

                            Many people, in discussing this issue over the years claim to have read Hatcher's work, and some still claim that the information is incomplete, erroneous, or actually says something other than what his clear language actually says in so many words.

                            Feel free to quote any part of the work which you feel sheds any doubt on what I find he actually said, then we can discuss any differences in interpretation.

                            If you feel complete confidence in shooting all your low-numbered 1903s, that should be sufficient for you. If you want to convince others that there is really little or no risk, you will have to be prepared to support your statements when you take such a position in open discussion.

                            mhb - Mike

                            And, FWIW, I did notice your little thumbnail chart: If it is what I believe it is, and came from where I suspect it did, and you want to put that forward as contrary evidence, I am prepared to comment on the proper uses of statistical analysis, and the complete and egregious misuse of it to 'prove' anything about the safety of low-numbered 1903 rifles or any other manufactured item wherein a safety issue is suspected. You will gain no mileage or respect with statistical BS, especially if you are the perpetrator, as I believe you are not.

                            [QUOTE=Marine A5 Sniper;

                            mb might want to reevaluate his statements. There weren't many receiver failures, and some of those that did fail included HN's.

                            I did my research, and as a result, I now shoot all my LN 03's.

                            jt[/QUOTE]
                            Last edited by mhb; 05-27-2013, 01:35.
                            Sancho! My armor!

                            Comment

                            • chuckindenver
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 3005

                              #29
                              no argument..my only statement...was if you choose to shoot a low number 1903 great..just take care when telling someone else to do so.
                              it wasnt a flame on anyone, or any type of weapon..
                              ony not to tell anyone to fire a weapon thats known to have issues handling a simple case head failure..
                              why is that so hard? let someone read and make the choice themselves.
                              as i said...no only do the people that ask, but anyone can see these statements simply by a coogle search...think about this,,,really..
                              someone says,,,go shoot that low number, and said person do so, and drops in a hot or bad handload...and it has a case head failure...and the rifle is destroyed and or the shooter hurt... see the point...
                              this isnt a shoot or dont shoot...its a think before you tell someone else that may not know all the facts to shoot.
                              if it aint broke...fix it till it finally is.

                              Comment

                              • mhb
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 420

                                #30
                                chuckindenver:

                                No points of disagreement here.
                                But I've several times previously encountered a particularly nasty piece of 'statistical analysis' purporting to show that there is really little or no risk associated with shooting the low-numbered 1903 rifles.
                                It is totally bogus, and apparently undertaken with no thought to the confusion it might cause to the uninformed or incautious. I have to wonder about the actual motivation of its originator.
                                I'll continue to call BS on the thing whenever it rears its ugly head, and see no reason not to do so whenever and whereever I get a whiff of its unmistakable aroma, whether it is named or not.
                                The risk is real, the facts are known, and no smoke-and-mirrors statistics changes a damned thing.

                                mhb - Mike
                                Sancho! My armor!

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