Looking at a RIA M1903...

[jonnyo55]

Hello to all. I got a chance last weekend to check out what seems to be a mint RIA M1903. A couple of questions are nagging at me, though...
S/N range is 279xxx, and I believe the barrel is a RIA 9/18, mirror bore. About 99% nice dark parkerizing with sharp edges & lettering indicating lack of refinish. Beautiful finger groove stock w/ RI at tip. However...

1) Bolt is a swept handle, with "J3" on bottom of safety lug. SA bolt?

2) Stock has no inspector's cartouches or initials. I believe the circle P is sans serif.

3) Deeply checkered buttplate.

I know that RIA rifles are somewhat of a law unto themselves, but the lack of inspection stamps and the swept J3 bolt concern me. What's the consensus?

[Rick the Librarian]

The bolt is probably a J5, not J3 - in any case, you are right - a Springfield bolt from about mid-1918. Depending on how "deeply" checkered. it may be a 1930s buttplate which would definitely be a replacement.

"Technically" the serial number is one of the low numbered receivers, but was in the "gray area" that could have been double heat-treated. There was a couple of interesting threads on a rifle of Fred G's in the same serial range some time ago, if you can locate them. There is a possibility that your rifle could be substantially original. Any chance of pictures?

[Fred]

Yes please post lots of pictures! I'll bet that its one of the Double Heat Treated Lower numbered Receivers. Does the front band have an H stamped into the bayonet lug? Pictures of the circled P proof and also of the left side of the wrist where the inspection cartouche should be. Also of the RI at stock tip.
Does it have a grooved trigger? Pictures please.
Also... Who is selling it and for how much?

[John Beard]

Hello to all. I got a chance last weekend to check out what seems to be a mint RIA M1903. A couple of questions are nagging at me, though...
S/N range is 279xxx, and I believe the barrel is a RIA 9/18, mirror bore. About 99% nice dark parkerizing with sharp edges & lettering indicating lack of refinish. Beautiful finger groove stock w/ RI at tip. However...

1) Bolt is a swept handle, with "J3" on bottom of safety lug. SA bolt?

2) Stock has no inspector's cartouches or initials. I believe the circle P is sans serif.

3) Deeply checkered buttplate.

I know that RIA rifles are somewhat of a law unto themselves, but the lack of inspection stamps and the swept J3 bolt concern me. What's the consensus?

(1) Yes, but the marking should be "J 5".

(2) If the stock has a proof mark, then it should have an inspection stamp. A sans serif proof mark did not originate from Rock Island Arsenal.

(3) A deeply-checkered buttplate is not contemporary with the serial number.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

[jonnyo55]

Unfortunately, I was not able to get any pics...I saw the rifle rather briefly, but long enough to pique my interest. It can be obtained for $1000.
The trigger is smooth, as would be expected. The thing that throws me is the SA bolt...any chance that it left RIA that way? How hard an item to obtain is the correct RIA bolt? Except for the oddments noted, this rifle appears to be virtually unissued, with original finish on both metal and wood. VERY attractive...

One odd feature that I've never seen before in decades of looking at these rifles concerns a 3-digit rack number located just in front of the buttplate tang at the rear of the stock comb...the rack number itself is not so unusual, but immediately in front of it is a large transverse gouge that looks like a previous rack number had been removed rather drastically with a round rasp. The three digit number does NOT correspond with the rifle's serial number. Again, I've never seen this type of "trough" cut across the stock...not until tonight, when I noticed the same thing in front of the same type of rack number in the photos that another member (Jangle) posted of his '09 RIA M1903. Look at the leftmost pic in post #8. Strange, strange coincidence!

[RCS]

Unit Identification

Also not common to find is the Unit Identification stamped on the buttplate tang: Troop H,
8th Cavalry, trooper #18 (thanks Ed B.)

[Dick Hosmer]

I'm not at all familiar with the blocking in an '03 crate, but I can say that I have seen similar marks in the butt-stocks of trapdoors. Are there any flattened impressions on the side(s) of the stock, from the plate to about 2" forward of same. The excellent finish might indicate a lot of miles rattling around in a crate.

[Rick the Librarian]

Unfortunately, I was not able to get any pics...I saw the rifle rather briefly, but long enough to pique my interest. It can be obtained for $1000.
The trigger is smooth, as would be expected. The thing that throws me is the SA bolt...any chance that it left RIA that way?
!

Your question about the SA bolt was one of the reasons I wanted you to access a couple of the threads dealing with these rifles. It was during this period (early 1918) that a lot of these rifles were made as "parts sets" and, from what I read, some of them may have been sent to Springfield Armory. Fred has a really nice example and I have one that I changed the stock, 272,505, (which I wish I had not!).

[Fred]

John, about the left hand side of the wrist... you mentioned that there wasn't an inspectors cartouche or initials. Did you happened to see if there was a single letter stamped into the left side of the rifle? I have such a rifle with an L stamped in place where a boxed cartouche would be expected to be seen. Do you have a recollection of seeing any such single letter stamp? Thanks.

[jonnyo55]

Rick, that's an interesting idea regarding the possible "Parts set" status...would go a long way towards explaining the SA bolt, along with the sans serif "P" proof. Still wondering about the lack of cartouche, though...but, there WAS a war going on! The rifle just has that not-messed-with, original "feel". Regarding the buttplate, could be that some owner in the '50's or '60's just preferred a checkered butt from a user's standpoint, and swapped it out. I know that I've done more foolish things than that!

Kind of seems like I'm talking myself into it, huh?

[TDP0311]

I didn't realize that any units stamped markings onto their 03s, thanks for sharing RCS. Shame that wasn't common practice...

[TDP0311]

jonnyo55, I picked up a 37 SA last week, and I had the exact same deal with the stock- it had the script P, but no cartouches. On closer inspection, I could see that a very, very long time ago they had been sanded off- perhaps this could be the case for you as well? Funny thing is my stock also had a much later model butt plate put on as well.

[jonnyo55]

My memory must have transposed the s/n digits...the correct s/n for the RIA I'm looking at is 297804. Prob'ly going to pick it up next week...
Any further intelligence considering the revised s/n?

[Fred]

Your receiver is double heat treated for sure then.

[jonnyo55]

I'll be doing my final inspection prior to purchase next week. Which parts should I be looking for an ordnance bomb on? Any other things I should be looking for? I can live with the SA bolt, but what I DON'T want is a RIA barrelled receiver and stock with the remainder of SA parts...or would that be correct, too? TIA for any advice...and I'll be sure to post pics if she follows me home!