USMC Sniper project...

[TDP0311]

I'm thinking of starting a reproduction sniper build, and would appreciate any tips about what I should be on the lookout for. Any characteristics or places to look would be much appreciated. If I'm not mistaken, there is a certain range of serial numbers that were used- but I'm not sure what that range is.

Thanks,
Tim

[TDP0311]

Also to clarify- I am going to do this slowly, and would like to find an M1941 if possible. I also realize these rifles are very rare and not often on the market, and when they are they bring a premium a college kid using the GI Bill can't often foot the bill for. So, if saving the purchase of the real deal for later on down the road is what I need to do, thats fine...

In the mean time, I'm thinking of browsing through already sporterized 1903s in the hopes of finding one as a good starting point. I'm assuming the best idea would be to try to find an SA made in the middle-late 30s, and then go with the reproduction Unertl 8x. I'm interested in doing this for matches (I live half an hour from Camp Perry), and just a good, fun rifle to have to shoot.

[pmclaine]

Creedmoor Sports sells built M1941 snipers using the Repro 8X check them out to get an idea of what they have done and pricing.

[Former0302]

Chuck from Denver on this forum did the work modifying the front hand guard and mounting the scope to the rifle for me. He does exceptional work.

Here's what I found out doing mine...verifiable M1903/1941 USMC snipers are as rare as hen's teeth. If you found one, you'd spend a king's ransom and you wouldn't want to shoot it in a match. You'll spend a small fortune trying to even replicate one with "authentic" parts (like finding a National Match 1903 in the correct serial number range to modify and a authentic 8X USMC Sniper marked Unertl scope).

I really just wanted an accurate faux rifle that closely simulated the 1941 in order to compete in the vintage sniper competitions. I decided that some concessions were in order to meet that goal without having to get a home equity line of credit and cause a divorce. YMMV, but given you're a young guy, you may want to consider the same. In the end, it came out at about the same amount it would cost me to buy a Creedmoor rifle that had the scope overhaul / tune up service done to it...and I have a few more bells and whistles. For what it's worth, here's the concessions I decided to make

- I too wanted a real Unertl, but realized that USMC Sniper marked ones run in the several thousands and wouldn't be financially possible. Every once in a while you'll hear a story of a guy who finds one at an estate auction or in some pawn shop where the owner is ignorant of what he has...but that's lottery ticket odds of happening. I looked for a civilian version of the same scope (1 1/4'' target scope in 8X). They are rare too since a lot of folks are doing reproduction rifles...but still possible to find, and definitely more affordable. Start looking on ebay. In the end, I settled for a 1'' target scope in 8X. Slightly shorter, this is the scope that the Creedmoor rifle has a replica of mounted on it. It is also authorized for use in the vintage sniper matches. Cost me $1000. You may find one for less. Be careful, as there are a lot of different varieties of Unertl scopes and some not so scrupulous ebay sellers that mis-represent their stuff. Not all Unertl scopes are authorized for the CMP matches, even if they are in 8X. There are also some other scope manufacturers that are authorized (Lyman for one I believe) so that may open up your search criteria...check CMP rules.

- Instead of destroying a national match 1903 which would be a crime (figuratively speaking of course)...I looked for a standard 1903 with a C stock. Gunbroker find for $800. It was a CMP rifle that was arsenal refinished at some point, and the barrel was brand new USGI. Shoots around 1 MOA from a bench with hand loads. Good enough.

- Scope mounting blocks, went with case hardened repro's from Steve Earle http://www.steveearleproducts.com/scopeblocks.html

- As stated before, Chuck in Denver modified the hand guard, blued and serial etched the bolt for a taste of authenticity, mounted the scope and did a general cosmolene removal and clean up of the stock and rifle.

- Bought a national match heavy checkered butt plate with hinged door for a bit more authenticity.

Here's a link to the experience...the good the bad and the ugly of it.

http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-vintage-sniper-rifles/150606-another-m1903a1-usmc-sniper-look-alike-begins.html

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!



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[TDP0311]

Thanks for the reply, sir! I agree that it is a crime to ruin a good rifle for a project like this, so I will most likely just hope to find a suitable late 30s receiver that has already been sporterized.

Last night I found a sporterized, early 1938 SA receiver, and I think I might go for it... it already has been D & T, in what appears to be the appropriate place over the chamber. I requested more pictures, so I should know more about it shortly.

[TDP0311]

Just saw your pics of the build, very nice. if chuckindenver is still doing this line of work, I will definitely ship my build to him when the time is right!

I currently have a barrel that I think will be appropriate. It is a 1943 Sedgley USMC that is in very good condition, that has the plumbers table marks on it... not sure if it was actually on a USMC rifle or not, or if any late Sedgleys were installed- but the marks look to be the real deal. Either way, it should make a good start as it wasn't one of the bent ones...

[Fred]

I'm thinking of starting a reproduction sniper build, and would appreciate any tips about what I should be on the lookout for. Any characteristics or places to look would be much appreciated. If I'm not mistaken, there is a certain range of serial numbers that were used- but I'm not sure what that range is.

Thanks,
Tim

Tim, your project sounds Very interesting and I hope to see some pictures of your rifle in the near future!

[Jim in Salt Lake]

Tim, I put mine together about 2 years ago and had similar experiences to many others. I'd just pass along a few other things to consider. I used the Leatherwood Malcomb USMC scope, nicknamed the "Chinertl." I used the blocks that came with it and they've worked fine. However, I got a set of the Steve Earle blocks since then but can't use them as the rear block has different hole spacing than the Malcomb blocks. If you're looking at a sportered rifle that's already been drilled, verify the holes will work with whatever blocks you're using. You won't be able to mix the Steve Earle and Malcomb blocks, the Earle blocks are significantly taller. BTW, the Earle 1903 blocks come with a beautiful color case hardening, that's why I wanted to use them, purely for the looks. If I was starting out again, I'd use them. I started with a sportered rifle, too. Mine was drilled for a side mounted scope so my receiver ring was virgin and I didn't have to worry about matching anything. The only other thing done to the rifle was the stock was cut short and a recoil pad installed. This saved me a bunch of money as the rifle had all the military metal which I reused on a new CMP stock. I got lucky on the new stock and it didn't take much work to fit it. However, these are made by Boyds and I've had less than stellar results with other Boyds stocks I've used. If you can find a surplus C stock that has tight receiver bedding, so much the better. A stock that beds loose isn't good because the CMP rules don't let you shim or glass bed the action.

I looked for several months for a CMP legal scope but came up dry. The old scopes were being snapped up by other folks doing the same thing and the ones that weren't were priced too high. I count myself lucky to find my rifle ($300 with a side mounted Weaver 330) but not lucky enough to find a reasonable deal on the scope. Other folks have and you might as well, I just wasn't that fortunate.

I heartily second the recommendation to have Chuck mount your blocks. My most common problem was that the front block would loosen up after repeated firing. I had mine silver soldered on the barrel. Chuck does this now or something like it, he does have his secrets! Send it to him and do whatever he tells you is needed and you'll be happy. He was a pleasure to work with and I'll send him mine back when I shoot the barrel out. When I got mine back from him, I centered the windage adjustment in the ring and took it out to shoot. I think my mechanical zero on a windless day is just a minute or two off the center, he does amazing work. Chuck also sold me one of his A4orgery bolts. While not true to the USMC heritage, it replaced a straight handled SHT bolt that I wasn't comfortable shooting and gives me plenty of scope clearance. I would also recommend that you talk to Chuck before you buy that sportered rifle and get his advice if anything can be done if the holes don't match up with the blocks. Steve Earle does sell blocks with no holes so they could be drilled to match.

This is my favorite rifle to shoot, they are an absolute gas. Besides CMP Vintage Sniper matches, I also use it for NRA midrange (300, 500, 600 yards). I want to take it out to the long range matches we have in Wendover and shoot it at 1000 yards.

[Jim in Salt Lake]

Deleted, double post, sorry.

[TDP0311]

Jim, so the Leatherwood is CMP legal?

Thanks for the advice as well. I will talk your advice and use the Earle blocks. I do have a basic 1903 question, however... I have found a few sporterized 1903s with receivers that are promising that have been set up to shoot a different caliber. I'm assuming this is done with just a rebarrel and bolt modification, and the rest will be good to go. Is that correct?

[CptEnglehorn]

I would also recommend chuck in denver, it might cost more than going for one of the other commercial companies builds, but you will be satisfied, I have one of his builds and its rediculously accurate and looks damn good to, I plan to buy more of his clones and recommend anyone who wants one to him. Heres mine

http://www.jouster.com/forums/showth...3-Sniper-Clone

[Former0302]

Jim, so the Leatherwood is CMP legal?

Yes, the Leatherwood "Chinertl" is CMP legal, so you can compete in the vintage sniper events.

It actually isn't a replica of the scope the USMC used (which was the 1 1/4'' Unertl target scope), it's a copy of the 1" target scope. Why they didn't use the right one to copy...who knows. I have the Unertl 1" target scope on my rifle if you want to see pics. It's a couple of inches shorter and the adjustment rings on the objective bell are a little different. But, it's CMP legal and is very close to the original.

I've heard that the general feedback on the Leatherwood scopes is that the glass is actually really clear. The mounting blocks and mounting block screws are made from inferior metal and loosen quickly. I think Creedmore offers a service where they upgrade some of the problems the scope was having for $80 or so...worth doing if you go this route I think.

The Steve Earl mounting blocks are the way to go. Also, Chuck will tell you to get the blocks for the Lyman scopes. They sit a tad higher than the Unertl blocks. This is good, as one of the issues with the Unertl / m1903 set up is that when the scope is adjusted for closer ranges, the bolt handle can hit the scope body. On some original M1903A1's they shaved the bolt body to accommodate this, and you'll see many clones go that route too. The little bit of extra clearance from the Lyman blocks resolves this issue. You're going to be dealing with stock weld issues anyway, regardless of the blocks used, so I figured a hair higher for less trouble was worth it.

Chuck also silver soldered mine. While technically not correct (in that the USMC armorers didn't originally do that), since my rifle was a "close proximity clone" and I was making concessions anyway...I went with improvements to the original formula rather than being a stickler for the historical accuracy of the build process.

CMP sells stocks for $165 plus s&h, and Chuck is more than up to the task of inletting it if it needs it. It won't have the "character" associated with a USGI stock, but it'll look really nice with several layers of BLO rubbed in. So, the sportarized route with a new stock might be a good way to go if you can pick it up on the cheap. Otherwise, keep an eye on the gun boards for a 1903 with a C stock, they're out there.

Thanks for your service BTW...good luck in school. Any thoughts of picking up a commission?

[TDP0311]

Good deal, thanks again for all the info, I have a very solid plan for what to do. I'm hoping to have this project completed by February. There is a particular gun show here in Ohio where I have had very good luck finding 1903 parts that are randomly strewn in bulk boxes, as well as barrels. I'm going to keep my eyes open for shaved bolts, and possibly a NM butt plate. I've found some pretty rare, original items there already (genuine USMC front sight hood, and a USMC stippled butt plate) so maybe I will get lucky again.

Right before I EAS'd I injured my leg significantly (non combat), which keeps me from being able to return to fleet time with the infantry, which is pretty much the only thing I'd be interested in doing. I graduate in May, and at current it appears grad school is the most likely next step.

[Jim in Salt Lake]

Jim, so the Leatherwood is CMP legal?

Thanks for the advice as well. I will talk your advice and use the Earle blocks. I do have a basic 1903 question, however... I have found a few sporterized 1903s with receivers that are promising that have been set up to shoot a different caliber. I'm assuming this is done with just a rebarrel and bolt modification, and the rest will be good to go. Is that correct?

As Former says, the Chinertl is CMP legal. Check out the CMP rule book here: http://odcmp.com/Competitions/CMPGamesRules.pdf I didn't build mine as a strict historical reproduction but as a rifle that meets the rules. On the height of the blocks, the Leatherwood blocks are lower than Steve Earle's. That being said, with my original straight handle SHT bolt and the scope adjusted as low as it would go, my bolt handle cleared the scope. I bought the A4orgery bolt from Chuck because I didn't feel comfortable shooting as much as I do with a SHT bolt. I built the rifle to shoot it, not to hang on the wall. I actually like the scope height with the lower blocks. I left my CMP stock fat (mine is fat in all dimensions, including height) and I get a good cheek weld with it. The CMP stocks are very pretty, too. As is the color case hardening on the Earle blocks, they look pretty cool. You have a great winter project, have fun with it!

As far as a rifle chambered in something else, if the caliber has a similar or same cartridge head size, the bolt probably wasn't modified. One of the most common caliber conversions is .35 Whelan, which is a .30-06 necked up. Look at the bolt and compare it to another if necessary to make sure it wasn't ground on. Or better yet, talk to Chuck.

[TW56]

Former0302, "It actually isn't a replica of the scope the USMC used (which was the 1 1/4'' Unertl target scope), it's a copy of the 1" target scope. Why they didn't use the right one to copy...who knows. I have the Unertl 1" target scope on my rifle if you want to see pics. It's a couple of inches shorter and the adjustment rings on the objective bell are a little different. But, it's CMP legal and is very close to the original".

This statement rarely ever is mentioned when discussing the Chinese version that Hi-Lux copied the wrong Unertl scope model. I also think Hi-Lux copied a pair of Lyman micrometer mounts when you look at the Chinese Hi-Lux version. They don't look like any of the variations of micrometer mounts that Unertl manufactured but do have some resemblance to Lyman mounts.