Marksmanship with the M1903 in WWI?

[tinydata]

I posted a thread inquiring about USMC combat marksmanship over on CMP, but it quickly degenerated into a flame war about the technical merits of various rifles and optics. It was suggested that I come over here and ask as well.

Does anyone have good sources documenting marksmanship feats with the M1903 during WWI? One interesting story I've stumbled upon indicated a US marksman scoring a kill at 1400 yards with an A5-equipped M1903.

[BigMo]

I don't have any sources of feats but I did find a PDF of the USMC manual for that day on the internet. In it are firing tables, courses of fire etc.
By looking at the courses of fire/ qual scores etc- you can get an idea of what they expected of their rifles.

Google: "USMC Score book" by Capt Harllee USMC 1912.

There are several version out there- the one I found was a PDF so you could look at the pictures etc.

HIH..............

[Emri]

As I stated on the CMP thread early on, contact MarineA5 sniper here. WWI marines and A-5 sniper rifles are his area of study. He should have something to add to the discussion.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I posted a thread inquiring about USMC combat marksmanship over on CMP, but it quickly degenerated into a flame war about the technical merits of various rifles and optics. It was suggested that I come over here and ask as well.

Does anyone have good sources documenting marksmanship feats with the M1903 during WWI? One interesting story I've stumbled upon indicated a US marksman scoring a kill at 1400 yards with an A5-equipped M1903.

The Marine in question, Pvt. Roland Fisher, 51st C 2/5, actually killed six men at that (later measured) distance at Le Mare Farm, and received a medal for his actions (DSC). He was subsequently wounded and DOD the following month and is buried in ANC. What exactly do you want to know?

jt

[tinydata]

Marine A5 Sniper- thanks for putting a name and place on the story. Do you have more details about his exploits? I find just about everything about long range marksmanship in the early years of the 20th century to be fascinating. It seems amazing that marksmen could achieve the results they did with cupro-nickle ammunition and rifles built with the available machinery. Do you know how many shots he fired to achieve those five hits? Do you know the range of the longest confirmed kill with a non-scoped M1903?

Also, this probably doesn't fall into your area of expertise (and slightly off topic), but I've read two books mentioning then-Ensign (later Vice Admiral) Willis Lee engaging Mexican snipers at Veracruz with a borrowed M1903.

"In April 1914 , during the U.S. intervention in Vera Cruz, Mexico, his landing force from the battleship New Hampshire came under fire. Wielding a borrowed rifle, Lee assumed a sitting position out in the open, drawing fire to locate enemy muzzle flashes, and killed three enemy snipers at long range."

(From Neptune's Inferno by James Hornfischer)

I was always curious about the distance at which he engaged the enemy with no cover. Quite a feat of nerves if you ask me.

Sorry for the boatload of questions- do you have any books in particular that you'd recommend?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Marine A5 Sniper- thanks for putting a name and place on the story. Do you have more details about his exploits? I find just about everything about long range marksmanship in the early years of the 20th century to be fascinating. It seems amazing that marksmen could achieve the results they did with cupro-nickle ammunition and rifles built with the available machinery. Do you know how many shots he fired to achieve those five hits? Do you know the range of the longest confirmed kill with a non-scoped M1903?

Also, this probably doesn't fall into your area of expertise (and slightly off topic), but I've read two books mentioning then-Ensign (later Vice Admiral) Willis Lee engaging Mexican snipers at Veracruz with a borrowed M1903.

"In April 1914 , during the U.S. intervention in Vera Cruz, Mexico, his landing force from the battleship New Hampshire came under fire. Wielding a borrowed rifle, Lee assumed a sitting position out in the open, drawing fire to locate enemy muzzle flashes, and killed three enemy snipers at long range."

(From Neptune's Inferno by James Hornfischer)

I was always curious about the distance at which he engaged the enemy with no cover. Quite a feat of nerves if you ask me.

Sorry for the boatload of questions- these historical details are always interesting to me.

He fired six shots (before witnesses, of which two were officers) and killed six Germans. The 5th Reg engaged the enemy at Le Mare Farm at a distance of 800 yards on 4 June 1918, and the Germans came no further. Their advance that day was the closest the Germans ever got to Paris. The German bodies were lying in piles according to witnesses. Google the battle of Le Mare Farm, which was the turning point of the war. It was the first time the 1918 spring German advance was stopped (not Belleau Woods as many believe).

As for Roland, his exploits ceased that day. DoD means Died of Disease. He was hit by artillery that day and died in the hospital. He was shooting from a haystack.

A much greater emphasize was placed on marksmanship in those days. The better you performed, the more you got paid. An additional side note, the 6th Regiment was the best educated regiment ever to go into combat - 60% were college graduates. They were decimated on 6 June 1918 at Belleau Woods.

jt

[Rick the Librarian]

As I recall, qualifying as a Sharpshooter brought you an extra $3 a month, Expert, $5. Not a small sum in the days when privates got $17-21 per month.

[SemperFi, 0321]

Marksmanship?

Another thing to look at, go back 20 yrs earlier, in the late 1800's. Marksmanship with a Trapdoor 45-70 wasn't what most of us can easily do, even though I did bring one to the field when I was with a M-60A1 tank unit and we shot it at quite some distance. Going from that to the 6mm Lee and then '03 Springfield was like shooting a laser, they had just made an incredible technological leap in ballistics.
People were accustomed to shooting, and shooting big bore rifles with substantial recoil, I don't think they whined about it like they do today. It was accepted as par for the course.
Any of us who have competed at the 5-600 yd line know that it's not that hard, with practice and knowledge of your weapon, it's fun to try for longer shots and consistent hits. So what they did in those days may seem remarkable to us, but to them, it was just a days work.
How many of us see the younger generation completely oblivious of shooting like that, without all these expensive optic sights? I have many younger friends I work and hunt with, they don't want to believe I shot a perfect 50 at 600 yds with a M-14 or M-16 with iron sights. They think I'm a blow hard, and we now assume the same of those great shooters from a 100 yrs ago?

[BigMo]

There is some truth to younger generations using the technology of their time- ie optics.
But at least with the Junior shooters in Service rifle still shoot with iron sights.

BTW A young man now in the AF Academy? -Rico Tyler- from California went Distinguished when he was 13? or 15?
So Don't count the younger generation out..........

[SemperFi, 0321]

"Don't count the younger generation out......"
He's an extreme exception to the rule, most younger guys I know don't shoot iron sights, and peep sights leave them clueless. It's crazy to watch a guy buy his 10 yr old a 10/22 with some cheap 3x9 scope on it, and I see that all the time here. Marksmanship is a dying art, technology is now the game.

[Maury Krupp]

Actually, that would be Tyler Rico from Tucson, Arizona who went Distinguished at not quite 13 1/2.

Tyler is the youngest (so far) but he's far from the only Junior to leg out before or since. Check the stage at Camp Perry each year; lots of young eyes and limber bodies standing up there.

It's not just the "younger guys" who are slaves to optics either. Go to any range on any given day and about all you'll see are guys with clones of the Hubble on their rifles banging away at 100yd. Ask them why and you get some BS about being too old to shoot irons.

Tell people, including most shooters, that you shoot 600 or 1000yd with iron sights, that you know guys in their 70s and 80s who do the same, and they look at you like you've got two heads.

Maury

[Griff Murphey]

I agree it is a lot of work to shoot well with iron sights after a certain age. It is hard in many cases to find a good optician or ophthalmologist to set a shooter up with an optimum prescription.

Even so a clean sight picture on an SR or MR does not mean a marksman can effectively use iron sights to humanely hunt big game or shoot steel plates set out in semi camouflaged positions as in three gun competition.

I have been lucky as my distance vision in my right eye has improved noticeably in the last decade. I was very nearsighted in my youth and at age 64 can now shoot iron sight bullseye very well with no optical correction, but for three gun and hunting, I really need a scope. Left eye remains great for reading and close work.

In youth I envied the old Army sergeants who could shoot rapid fire bare eyeballed in the rain. Well, they don't allow that any more.

High power scopes will mess up your target acquisition!

[ChrisATX]

Tell people, including most shooters, that you shoot 600 or 1000yd with iron sights, that you know guys in their 70s and 80s who do the same, and they look at you like you've got two heads.

Shooting irons taught me that I simply don't understand using optics at the 100 yard line.

Last week, for example, there were three other gentlemen on the line. One was decked head to toe in 5.11 shooting a brand new M14... scoped. The second was switching back and forth between ARs and some kind of generic Remington 700, ALL on sleds. Then there was a retired gentleman, former Army, former Wildcatter, another scoped M14, all synthetic. When I went to retrieve my target, they came downrange to check theirs as well.

M14 guy's placement was all over the place. He shotgun patterned his zero-style target. Sled dude was grouping, but no clovers (he was using factory ammo, so he wasn't working up loads).

The wildcatter walks over to my target and exclaims, "100 yards with irons? I like the sh$t outta that!" He asked me what I did for a living, I told him I was a research scientist over at the university. He said "get the hell outta here, really?? Where'd you learn how to shoot?" I told him.

Naturally, after that, the other two gentlemen got curious and came over, and stayed quiet... the looks on their faces was pretty great though.

11 shots, 100 yards, slinged up, elbows to the bench.




I have positively no doubt in my mind that if a well-trained rifleman with an issues M1903 could see it, he could hit it.

[Herschel]

The guys who shoot scope sighted rifles are likely the same ones who drive vehicles with automatic transmissions. I am 76 years old and my deer rifle is a 1903 NRA Sporter with iron sights. I am not totally retro as I carry a smart phone and drive a car with auto trans.

[mwt]

Proper deer rifle

http://tinypic.com/m/i1fozk/2