1903/1905 dated leather sling

[Hal O'Peridol]

Got this on a commercial Savage .22 rifle.

Rock Island Arsenal made both straps. It is not a M1907 sling, wondering if it is a M1903 or M1905.

Seems awful long for a Krag. Issue sling for early M1903 Springfield rifle?

[Hal O'Peridol]

Last couple of pics

[rayg]

Well now there are two of these slings we're aware of. I posted the one I have last December here and were there was a discussion on it. http://www.jouster.com/forums/showth...highlight=rayg Some how none of the photos are the ones I posted. Have no idea what happened, so I'll repost the photos here.
The sling has 16 double holes on the short end and 32 on the long end whereas the regular 07 slings have only 16 on both ends. I also checked my TD and Krag slings and they only have 16-18 double holes total.
There is also an inspectors stamp on the sling.
It's been mentioned that may have been made from earlier slings but the only problem I see with using and/or combining other slings to make it is the long length has 32 sets of holes in it. No other earlier sling I can think of has that many holes. The TD/Krag slings have only 18-19 sets of holes total, musket slings less also. It seems that the sling maybe was originally designed that way with that number of holes or why else would they add that many more holes? In fact not sure why they would need that many holes. Ray
I checked the Krag/TD slings and there would be enough length of the sling with out holes in it already to re-use for the long length. But why not just punch the normal amount of holes if there were none already in it. Why that many holes unless it was intentional. Another thought, but probably way remote, but maybe it's a scrap piece that was used in setting up the punches and as nothing was discarded they just used it. It's the extra amount of the holes that create the question as no other obsolete slings have that many or that pattern of holes. I still lean a bit to a Trials sling. Especially with the RI stamp and date on each end to indicate Arsenal approval/done.
Ray

1903 Rock Island3-19.JPG1903 Rock Island3-20.JPG1903 Rock Island3-22.jpg1903 Rock Island3-25.jpg1903 Rock Island3-26.jpg

[Hal O'Peridol]

Long strap is 48 inches long with 35 pairs of holes, plus the extra two holes.

Short strap is 24 inches long with 16 pairs of holes.

The sling is obviously USGI, arsenal stamped and inspector marked. The length of the long strap and odd number and spacing of holes does not correspond with any other US sling that I know about.

Tried to google/duckduckgo the M1905 sling, but there really is little info out there.

I was hoping Rick the Librarian would chime in.

[PhillipM]

PM or call Richard Turner.

[Hal O'Peridol]

PM or call Richard Turner.

Did so this past Friday, 8/7/15.

[rayg]

Ok I re-measured my sling just to be sure I measured right before and the long length is 48" with 32 pr holes and the short length is 24" with 16 pr of holes. both of the posted slings, his and mine, are close to being the same pattern so more then one was made. It's possible this sling might be a trials or transition version designed for the rod bayonet and converted 1905-06 dated Springfield's. Probably a bit of influence or suggestions by target shooters w/the arsenal's back then by using two hooks for better rifle/sling hold for shooting not one hook like the earlier Krag slings had. Also the overall length of my sling is 2" shorter then the standard 07 sling, Ray

[Hal O'Peridol]

Let's toss this into the mix. From a 1927 gun and parts catalog, probably Bannerman's but cannot state for sure.

[Hal O'Peridol]

Got a reply from Richard Turner. Combo of a M1903 short strap and a M1905 long strap. So essentially it's a bubba sling!

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Got a reply from Richard Turner. Combo of a M1903 short strap and a M1905 long strap. So essentially it's a bubba sling!

Your sling is correct and was one of the early M1907 Slings, since the Ordnance Department mandated that the existing usable M1903 and M1905 Slings in inventory be cannibalized and used for construction of the new model M1907 Sling in order to save cost. From what I understand, the U.S. Army had tens of thousands of the earlier slings in inventory which was still in serviceable condition and could be modified for making the new M1907 Sling. Your sling in its current condition would be quite valuable to someone who needed it for their collection. I believe your sling modification to have been made at Rock Island Arsenal, most likely a first year production. Rock Island cannibalized many musket slings, spliced the straps together in order to make some of the first M1887 Slings for the M1873 Springfield Rifle.

Back then, leather was an even more valuable commodity and was re-purposed when practicable. This was also what happened to many M1885 McClellan Cavalry Saddles. The tree and hardware was salvaged and they were rebuilt into the M1904 and M1912 Cavalry Saddles in order to save cost.

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This is what I posted over on the CMP Forums Accessories Page:

Hal O'Peridol:

Your sling is made up from two different slings, short strap is made up from the M1903 Sling and the long strap is made up from a M1905 Sling. The two large holes with slits on the tail of the long strap were the button holes for the brass sling stud.

Each of these earlier slings had a hook at one end and a brass button stud at the other. Each sling had 20 pair of holes in the body of the sling and was outfitted with a pair of keepers. The M1903 Sling was 52" long and the M1905 Sling was 48" long. The difference in each, other than length, was the number of holes at the button end. The M1903 had three pair while the M1905 had two pair of holes. There was an M1906 Sling as well. It was made up the same as the M1905; however, it omitted the two pair of holes at the button end of the sling and was considered an experimental sling. The M1907 Sling was finally the culmination of these various type slings and served the need not only as a carry strap, but also as a shooting aid.

If you don't have Colonel Brophy's Book on the Springfield, here is a link to Page 435 covering the various slings and descriptions. There are some discrepancies, such as referring to the 66.5 inch sling as the M1903 Sling when it is actually the M1887 Sling, which was used on both the M1873 Springfield (Trapdoor) as well as the Krag. https://books.google.com/books?id=vb...button&f=false


This one of our M1903 Sling Reproductions with blackened brass as per the original. Notice the three pair of holes at the button end of the strap. On the M1905 Sling, there were only two pair of holes.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Fred]

Excellent quality sling. The one you made for me is Great Richard!

[rayg]

[QUOTE=Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery;426530] There was an M1906 Sling as well. It was made up the same as the M1905; however, it omitted the two pair of holes at the button end of the sling and was considered an experimental sling.

See post #3 that I posted above for the M1906 experimental sling that Richard mentioned about in his post. It has two hooks and is dated 1905 on both ends and w/no holes for the button. Looks like I guessed it right that it was experimental not a normal put together, Ray

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Ray:

What you have is also one of the first M1907 Slings made up from two M1905 Slings. What they did at Rock Island Arsenal was take the earlier slings and chop the best section, utilizing the existing holes. You have to keep in mind that saddlers at the various commands were also authorized to make these modifications, turning earlier slings into the new M1907, so there will be variations.

I try to tell folks all the time that you will find variations in all types of military gear, especially over 70 years ago. They were making modifications to a piece of gear in order to make it into a serviceable item and not concerned what a collector may think of their handy work 100 years down the line, i.e., "Is it correct or not?" Some of these rebuilds and repairs were referred to as "Field Expedient Work". Especially in leather and canvas work, some of the unit saddlers and harness makers were not that great at their craft and much of their work shows. I have stumbled across military saddles and horse related equipment that had less than desirable hardware, such as rings and loops (in brass and iron), that had been hammered out in the field for a replacement. Some of these troops were not very good blacksmiths either.

The M1887 (66.5"); M1903 (52"); and M1905 (48") slings all had 20 pair of holes punched within the body of the slings. They normally had the original 20 pair of holes beginning at the hook end of the long strap and punched 10 to 12 pair of holes on the non-hook end of the strap. The short strap would be salvaged from another section of one of the earlier slings, and you usually see a pair of holes very close to the hook on the short strap. The Rock Island Specs called for 16 pair of holes on the hook end and 10 pair of holes on the feed end (non-hook end). The short strap had 16 pair of holes. There is information out there on these very early M1907 Slings, but you have to dig to find it. There are some discrepancies in several of Colonel Brophy's writings as well as others in regard to which model number was assigned to a particular sling.

Richard

[rayg]

Ok. guessed wrong . I suppose there was enough leather on the older slings to stamp those 32 pr of holes on the long section and having the hooks on each end section where the 05 dates were still positioned under the hooks. Richard what does the trials M1906 sling look like? Ray

[Richard Turner/Turner Saddlery]

Ray:

Don't know if you missed it, but the link I listed earlier details a lot of what you are asking. It is a direct link to Page 435 and 436, Brophy's Springfield Book, and on both pages it details development of the various slings, including the M1906 and M1907. I tried to copy/paste, but it is in Google Books and will not let me. Here is the link again. It does not list Page 434, but the other pages available have the info you need.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vb3dDN9FiekC&pg=PA435&lpg=PA435&dq=m1903+sling+one+hook+and+one+button&source=bl&ots=MbYmLByZx3&sig=lQGtT-L770FFHJ7XgOaPwT6UtWY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAGoVChMIs4eos5umxwIVwrKACh0MjQJX#v=onepage&q=m1903%20sling%20one%20hook%20and%20one%20button&f=true

Under the M1907 Sling LtCol. Brophy states that The Office of the Chief of Ordnance and Rock Island worked up a plan to utilize various obsolete slings on hand at Rock Island to make parts of the new 1907 sling. Cost of rework was .32 cents per sling. In 1907, 19,000 M1907 slings were to be made using the obsolete slings. All together, 106,470 slings were ordered to be fabricated in the same way. LtCol Brophy goes on further to state that in examining a dozen such slings, seven different dates and ten different inspector's initials. At least five contractors and Rock Island Arsenal are identified. This makes since, due to the fact that all previous slings had their own manufacturer's markings as well as inspector's initials.

I have some scanned pages from another book on Krags, I believe it is from Joe Poyer's book "The American Krag Rifle and Carbine", but I'm unsure. There is some good info on page 140-143, regarding the M1903, M1887 (66 1/2"), and M1907 Slings.

Back around the mid to late ninties, I had the great fortune to be able to speak with a gentleman who had worked at Boyt Harness from the mid 1930s up through about the mid 1970s, said he had worked at Boyt for over 40 years. He was still stopping by their shop once a week at that time. I asked him about ordnance department inspectors, and he said not every piece that left a civilian contractor's shop or the various arsenals received an inspector's initials. He said that the inspector had set days that he would stop by and look over production, and inspect and stamp, say every 10th or 15th holster, sling, or scabbard, ect., with his initial stamp. He said that the inspector was not on site 24/7, that he had other shops and manufacturing facilities within his geographical jurisdiction to inspect. What is a real shame is, Boyt burned sometime during the late 1980s or early 1990s, and all records were lost. This gentleman said Boyt was very meticulous at keeping records and never threw anything away, so this was a great loss.

The whole deal around getting the chance to speak with this gentleman at Boyt, was in regard to a question I asked the President of Boyt one year at the SHOT SHOW. How did Boyt machine stitch M1907 keepers during WWII. He gave me his card and told me to call the company the following week and he would find out when this gentleman would be stopping by. I guess we spoke for almost an hour and he was a wealth of information. I know he has passed on by now, he was in his eighties at that time. Later on, he dug around the parts room at Boyt and found one of the old attachments that they used to sew the keepers and had someone send me some photos along with a description of the process and the type of sewing machine used. The attachment was designed to be used on a Campbell Harness Stitcher (thankfully I had one in the shop). I contacted the company who still carried parts for these old machines, sent them a copy of the photo, and lo and behold, they found one of the attachments that was at least 75 years old and in unused condition. They didn't have any idea of what operation the attachment performed.

We still stitch our keepers by hand, one stitch at a time. I just never liked the way the machine stitched keeper looked, even though they looked as good or better than war time production. I could go on and on about equipment, but I'll save that for later.

Richard