Need some help on a Springfield 1903 H.B. 1932

[Fast996]

I'm going to take a look at this rifle sometime next week and was hoping some RKI's here could point out,what this rifle is actually. I'm interested mainly if it is original the way it sits and if it could be have been produced at the armoury.

If Cosine26 is around can you please comment on this rifle.

The barrel is 28 inches in length and does look like a style "T" type. The bluing does look to be consistent through out,but I'm not a expert at all on these rifles. The stock does have a circle P on the grip.

Has the stock been cut? The serial # is 1417414 so should be a 1932 manufacture. IIRC these Style T rifles were all produced in 1930 and this gun has the standard safety,not the reverse safety. Also it has the headed type cocker which I think would be correct for a 1932 rifle.

I'm not really sure if this is a NM action,maybe others can make that distinction. Is does have a root marked N.S. bolt,but looks to be overstamped. The barrel band does look like the enfield adapted type. The Lyman does not look period correct for the year of rifle.

The front sight does look to be the modified BAR type with a Redfield globe attached.

The gun does not show up on the DCM list.

I have attached several photos.

Thanks in advance.

p.s. someothers on another forum think this is a NM action because of the pin prick mark on the RH rail between the extractor and bolt. It does have the grooved trigger.

[Fast996]

Some other photos

[Fast996]

Photos

[Jeff L]

Nice! Is that heavy barrel?

[Fast996]

Nice! Is that heavy barrel?

Well I haven't seen it in person yet,but by the photo of the barrel at the receiver I would say yes it is.

[Fast996]

Ok I finally talked to a person that knows a little about this rifle. This rifle was bought at Auction buy a Cabelas buyer. The manager collects Springfields and he says that the gun is original,not a parts gun,it hasn't been cut or altered. He said the bluing looks factory. I asked him if the barrel was a Springfield and he thought is was. This does look like a style T,but the serial # is later than 1930. It is a 28 inch barrel and in another post Cosine26 commented that by 1931 the 28's were gone. Just hoping that somebody here that knows about these Springfields can shed further light. If it is a armory gun I would guess that somebody other than the DCM sold and ordered it. Like I said it is not on the SRS list.

Just a question...should I have the stock taken off to check what marks are on the barrel? I ask because the rifle looks to be never taken a part before. Thanks

One little comment...the manager said when the rifle came in customers would just stare at it and ask what it was..he said it was a really impressive looking rifle.

[Ed Byrns]

SA#1417414
Things I know and can see.
The receiver is in a group of "loose NM receivers and barreled actions",where a good number
were sent to G&H for improvements(not this specific serial number)at specific customer requests.
The rear sight assy. is post war with graduations to "90".
The stock work,cut out for Lyman ,is not the work of SA.
Respectfully submitted
Ed Byrns

[Fast996]

SA#1417414
Things I know and can see.
The receiver is in a group of "loose NM receivers and barreled actions",where a good number
were sent to G&H for improvements(not this specific serial number)at specific customer requests.
The rear sight assy. is post war with graduations to "90".
The stock work,cut out for Lyman ,is not the work of SA.
Respectfully submitted
Ed Byrns

Ed,Thank you. OK,I thought the Lyman cutout was not right,so would that point to this rifle not being made at SA? My next biggest concern is the barrel,actually without measuring the muzzle which s.b. .860 and at the receiver 1.25,I am not sure this is a actual Style T barrel. Although it has the correct barrel band and Browning BAR front sight base.

Another thought with the only mark on the stock the "P" proof,would that stock be available as a part?

[John Beard]

My documentation shows no Style T rifles ordered or manufactured in 1932.

The rifle appears to be a Sporter that the original owner had re-barreled with a Style T heavy barrel. The DCM sold six (6) NRA Sporters in a tightly-clustered serial number block, the last of which was less than 60 rifles away. And the SA annual reports show more than 800 NRA Sporters being made 1932-33.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

p.s.,

With the deepening Great Depression, Congress declined to appropriate funds for the 1932 National Matches. Even though rifles for the 1932 National Matches had already been re-conditioned or manufactured earlier that year, the National Matches were cancelled. This probably explains why no new Style T rifles were manufactured.

[Fast996]

My documentation shows no Style T rifles ordered or manufactured in 1932.

The rifle appears to be a Sporter that the original owner had re-barreled with a Style T heavy barrel. The DCM sold six (6) NRA Sporters in a tightly-clustered serial number block, the last of which was less than 60 rifles away. And the SA annual reports show more than 800 NRA Sporters being made 1932-33.

Hope this helps.

J.B.

p.s.,

With the deepening Great Depression, Congress declined to appropriate funds for the 1932 National Matches. Even though rifles for the 1932 National Matches had already been re-conditioned or manufactured earlier that year, the National Matches were cancelled. This probably explains why no new Style T rifles were manufactured.

J.B. I hope you don't mind me picking your brain here. If it is a rebarrel, do you see signs of a reblue? If it is a sporter the leading edge of the receiver should be rounded. I'm not a RKI,can you tell? Thanks

It would make more sense if it was a sporter,that would explain the P proof on the stock. One other poster mentioned he thought it was a NM though....because of the polished raceways and a pin prick mark on the RH rail between the extractor and bolt. After all it might not matter in the end my main concern is that the rifle is mostly original,meaning stock,barrel(springfield) and the action being either a NM or sporter. If the bluing was original,but I would have no good explanation for that.

[JimF]

Is it just the pic, or is the heel of the stock sanded so as to allow the butt-plate to be too "proud" of the stock? --Jim

[Fast996]

Is it just the pic, or is the heel of the stock sanded so as to allow the butt-plate to be too "proud" of the stock? --Jim

Length of pull is 13" so it's been cut.

[Cosine26]

STYLE T COMMENTS-2015
John Beard, RTL and probably many others on this forum know more than I do about the M1903 and it variants and probably have more in-depth documentation on the M1903 than I. Having been asked to comment I shall respond and hope that it makes some small contribution. My references are the DCM pages and to articles appearing in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN magazine for the 1920's and the 1930"s and the various books by Crossman, Campbell, Dunlap, and Brophy.
The Style T was first advertised on DCM page of the December 1929 AMERICAN RIFLEMAN magazine. It had an illustration of a heavy barreled M1903 but the illustration was not of the Style T but was an earlier heavy barreled M1903 -vintage 1922..
The component description is given as:
1. BARREL: "The rifle is furnished with barrels either 28 or 30 inches long, tapering evenly from 1.25 inches at breech to 0.860 inch at the muzzle. The barrel is star-gauged and is rifled and chambered in the same manner is the barrels in the National Match Rifle".
2. SIGHTING EQUIPMENT:"The sighting equipment is the Lyman No. 48C receiver sight and the Winchester globe aperture front sight."
3. ACTION" The breech action is that of the Springfield, Model of 1903 , specially selected, hand fitted, and polished with hand adjusted trigger pull. It is provided with the headless cocking piece and reversed-safety lock assembly".
4.STOCK: "The stock is the Model 1922 pistol-grip, exactly the same as furnished on the US Rifle, caliber .30, M1922 N.R.A. sporting type, except as to the barrel groove."
5.RIFLE: "The entire rifle is polished and blued".
On the DCM page of the July 1930 AMERICAN RIFLEMANT magazine a notice appears that has the following information:
1. RIFLE available for..... $85.00
2. Barrels Heavy, Style T..... $36.50 (Lengths available not indicated)
3. Barrel and receiver assembly for Style T rifles .....$41.25
4. Lower Band.....$1.51.
Here are my comments and observations:
1. I believe that all Style rifles and components were fabricated and assembled in 1930 and I would not expect to see an Armory assembled rifle to be serial numbered above the 1.3 M range. Barrel lengths of the standard M1903 were fabricated from blanks that were approximately 24 inches long and fabrication of longer barrels would require special fixtures and jigs and the procurement of special barrel blanks and special set ups for boring and rifling barrels longer than 24 inches. By 1930 the Great Depression was in full sing and I suspect that funds to SA were very limited for such special work. There appears a notice in the February 1931 issue of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN that I quote:
"The supply of Style T Model 1903 rifles with the 28-inch heavy barrels , as described in the December 1929 issue of the RIFLEMAN is exhausted. The type can still be furnished with the 30-inch barrels at $85.00 each plus the usual packing charges of $1.34 each. There are on hand approximately fifty-eight of the Style T Model 1903 , caliber .30 ,heavy barreled rifles with 30--inch barrels, and no more of the 28-inch barrels will be manufactured until the present supply of these rifles with the 30-inch barrels is exhausted.
As John Beard noted-the 1930 National Matches were not held due to lack of funding .
2. Nothing in any of the publications that I have seen indicated that the receiver was National Match or NRA Sporter variety- only that it was specially selected-probably from normal production. It may have been closely gauged. Since the rifle was blued (a process that was rarely used at the Armory at this time) I would not expect to see polished rails-the rifle was not intended for rapid fire matches.
3. The stock has a "P" stamped on the pistol grip so it probably came off a rifle that had been assembled and test fired at the Armory. It was common practice to have a NRA Sporter shipped to Stoger, G&H, Sedgley and probably other gunsmiths where the Armory stock was replaced by the company's own version so I would imagine that here were some available for sale. According to Col Wheland, in an article appearing in an article in the AR in the 1930'ss, there were several varieties of M1922 stocks available through the DCM, but of course these would not have the "P" stamp.
4. In 1930 the decision was made to discontinue the headless cocking piece and to equip the 1930 NM M1903 with the standard cocking piece-though the headless cocking piece could be furnished on request as long as the supply lasted. I would tend to believe that all or most of the Armory Style T Rifles were assembled with the standard cocking piece and the standard safely lever (My Opinion only-not documented. )
5. The Lyman 48 on the pictured rifle is very interesting. The base appears to be a very early post WWII base while the gallows arm appears to be of a later version-probably about early 1960's. Lyman did not mark directional arrows on the adjustment knobs until the early 60's. I would say that one should examine the base and the gallows arm to see if the assembly numbers match.
6. In closing I should like to say that many Style T components were available for purchase by NRA members until about the middle of the 1930's. At that time the DCM advertised that Sporter and Style T components were available only to members who had previously purchased one the type.
I know that this is long but I hope it helps. It is my belief that a Style T with a serial number in the 1.4M range is an assembled rifle-but I cannot say when or where. I do not believe that it is from the original group. It may have been assembled at the Armory for some special reason. During the 1930's some special projects were assembled by various military personnel-for example, the .22 Hornets were built on M1922 .22 caliber rifles.
Any corrections' or comments would be appreciated.
FWIW

[Fast996]

STYLE T COMMENTS-2015

I know that this is long but I hope it helps. It is my belief that a Style T with a serial number in the 1.4M range is an assembled rifle-but I cannot say when or where. I do not believe that it is from the original group. It may have been assembled at the Armory for some special reason. During the 1930's some special projects were assembled by various military personnel-for example, the .22 Hornets were built on M1922 .22 caliber rifles.
Any corrections' or comments would be appreciated.
FWIW

Cosine26 thank you for your very detailed reply,very much appreciated.

As I learned yesterday evening this rifle's stock has been shortened from the standard LOP of 13.5 to 13.00 inches. To a collector,would this be a deal breaker...I don't know.

Cosine26 your point about this being a assembled rifle,I assume you mean not a rebarrel is interesting,and I guess you come to that conclusion because the bluing looks to be consistent throughout and of SA type. The only explanation I can think of is that this rifle was a "special project" that somebody ordered,as you suggest. It would be interesting to see the opinions on whether this was done at Springfield or by Springfield personnel. I think this rifle not being on the DCM,could add credence that it was a "special order",by a military contingent. All of this depends I think on whether the barrel is a Springfield style T or not. I will have to measure the barrel when I have it in hand and see it it is indeed 1.25 and .860 @ the end points. I do not know if any other gunmakers at the time would make a "clone" barrel.

[John Beard]

J.B. I hope you don't mind me picking your brain here. If it is a rebarrel, do you see signs of a reblue? If it is a sporter the leading edge of the receiver should be rounded. I'm not a RKI,can you tell? Thanks

It would make more sense if it was a sporter,that would explain the P proof on the stock. One other poster mentioned he thought it was a NM though....because of the polished raceways and a pin prick mark on the RH rail between the extractor and bolt. After all it might not matter in the end my main concern is that the rifle is mostly original,meaning stock,barrel(springfield) and the action being either a NM or sporter. If the bluing was original,but I would have no good explanation for that.

(1) I see no obvious signs of a re-blue.

(2) The front edge of the receiver appears to be very slightly rounded.

Hope this helps.

J.B.