Just took some more close up photos of...

[John Beard]

Here are some hard numbers for you.

I have access to a data base of serial numbers and barrel dates collected purely at random. In the data base are:

151 rifles in the S/N 700,000 range.

424 rifles in the S/N 800,000 range.

397 rifles in the S/N 900,000 range.

These numbers prove that a significant percentage of the rifles in the S/N 700,000 range fell off the edge of the world.

J.B.

[Fred]

Thanks for sharing that Very interesting information John! Before I'd learned from you about the order from the Chief of Ordnance for Springfield Armory to destroy all returning 1917 made receivers, I suspected that the 700,000 range rifles had just had more time in the field and the attrition rate was highest for them.
My original question still stands though John. Does the condition of my rifle indicate to you that it could possibly be a Doughboy bring back? It does to me. I can't think of another more probable reason the rifle had remained unchanged and in such sharp condition. Maybe there are others that I can't think of though. Any ideas?

[John Beard]

Thanks for that Very interesting information John! Before I'd learned from you about the order from the Chief of Ordnance for Springfield Armory to destroy all returning 1917 made receivers, I suspected that the 700,000 range rifles had just had more time in the field and the attrition rate was highest for them.
My original question still stands though John. Does the condition of my rifle indicate to you that it could possibly be a Doughboy bring back? It does to me. I can't think of another more probable reason the rifle had remained unchanged and in such sharp condition. Maybe there are others that I can't think of though. Any ideas?

Fred,

Your rifle could certainly and easily pass as a Doughboy bring-back. The original sling and fine condition gives credibility to that explanation. The incorrect bolt and rear sight slide binding screw that you had to replace, however, reduces that explanation's credibility a little. In addition, one must ask, "Where's the rest of it?"

In the case of my rifle, it came with the sling, bayonet, bayonet scabbard, breech cover, and cleaning kit in the butt. And there was no question whatsoever that it had been together as a set for a long, long time. No question whatsoever! The Doughboy who brought it back left nothing behind. He came back with everything he was issued. And everything is 100% original with no replacement parts.

I had a very, very dear friend and mentor who was a WWI veteran. He was issued an M1917 rifle. He told me that he could easily have brought the rifle back and the Army would have never missed it. When he mustered out, he was told to go turn in his rifle at the armory. When he arrived in the armory, he was told to throw his rifle in the huge pile in the floor. Nobody checked the serial number. Nobody checked it in. Nobody cared. Nothing. Had he known that, he said he could have just skipped the armory and brought it home. And in the case of my rifle, apparently somebody did!

Hope this helps.

J.B.

[Fred]

Yep, I can't figure where the unrefinished RB bolt could've come from. Those aren't easy to find now. No telling how long it could've been on that rifle.
I had thought that the earlier type elevation slide binding knob might've been, like the split sling swivel, just an early part that could still be found in the parts inventory.
I have such an early knob that I initially got to replace the worn one like it that came on the rifle. I chose the later type instead though. Maybe I should install the earlier type though so the rifle maintains its original type features. That early bolt is certainly not going back on it though.
I wonder if some owner had put it on the rifle because it was polished and they thought it looked better than the original...

[John Beard]

Yep, I can't figure where the unrefinished RB bolt could've come from. Those aren't easy to find now. No telling how long it could've been on that rifle.
I had thought that the earlier type elevation slide binding knob might've been, like the split sling swivel, just an early part that could still be found in the parts inventory.
I have such an early knob that I initially got to replace the worn one like it that came on the rifle. I chose the later type instead though. Maybe I should install the earlier type though so the rifle maintains its original type features. That early bolt is certainly not going back on it though.
I wonder if some owner had put it on the rifle because it was polished and they thought it looked better than the original...

The rear sight slide binding screw and split-shank sling swivel currently on your rifle are correct. I would leave it just like it is.

J.B.

[Fred]

Thanks. Wilco

[Fred]

Fred,

Your rifle could certainly and easily pass as a Doughboy bring-back. The original sling and fine condition gives credibility to that explanation. The incorrect bolt and rear sight slide binding screw that you had to replace, however, reduces that explanation's credibility a little. In addition, one must ask, "Where's the rest of it?"



.B.

Where's the rest of it indeed! Fat chance the bolt came off of an unconverted Rod Bayonet 1903 though I guess.
However, even though my Rod Bayonet 03 is an assembly of original no longer available RB parts, isn't it Amazing that the bolt that was on it when I got the rifle was C7 stamped and therefore correct for my late 1917 03... which in turn had the unaltered Rod Bayonet bolt in it. Maybe Saint Brophy shuffled the deck in my favor that time, eh?
It seems that I once again just Forest Gump'd my way through that situation.

[John Beard]

Where's the rest of it indeed! Fat chance the bolt came off of an unconverted Rod Bayonet 1903 though I guess.
However, even though my Rod Bayonet 03 is an assembly of original no longer available RB parts, isn't it Amazing that the bolt that was on it when I got the rifle was C7 stamped and therefore correct for my late 1917 03... which in turn had the unaltered Rod Bayonet bolt in it. Maybe Saint Brophy shuffled the deck in my favor that time, eh?
It seems that I once again just Forest Gump'd my way through that situation.

You were fortunate indeed!

I had a similar situation with stocks on two rifles that I bought many years ago. I bought a 1917 rifle with a 1906 alteration stock on it, and an altered rod bayonet rifle with a 1917 stock on it. The two stocks are now back where they belong.

Working with VFW/American Legion rifles at the CMP, I see mixed up bolts all the time. The posts frequently mixed the bolts when cleaning the rifles. I try to sort them back out as best I can.

J.B.

[Fred]

The 1903 Springfield, sling, oiler, bayonet and scabbard on this thread will be put up on the Want To Sell forum on this site very soon. Just a heads up for anyone who might find it of some interest.

[Fred]

The shiny bore is difficult to get a focus on, but I think this photo shows how Minty the rifling is...
I'm tellin ya, I think that someone took this rifle home at the end of the Great War and hid it away. That's probably the only reason that it exists today in the unaltered condition that it's in.

[Fred]

Alright, I'm Hopefully going to put this 1917 barreled S.A. 03 on the For Sale Forum here tonight. Sorry for the delay. Look for its Posting tonight.

Within the thread where I'm going to list the rifle for sale, I'm going to post a link to this thread as a reference to the photos of everything and to the information on it that people have shared.

I'll be including with this rifle a 1918 dated 1905 bayonet with a 1910 scabbard, an early nickel plated oiler and brush and pull cord, an excellent conditioned 1907 leather sling with the date of 1917 stamped on it and a U.S. Model 1916 field cleaning rod of the type that has Four Sections to it within its canvas pouch.
Here are the photo's of it...

[Fred]

[Fred]

[Fred]

[Fred]