Buying a M1903

[Fred]

Inexpensive original 1903's that've been Arsenal Refinished or Updated or Repaired are also out there. They get tossed in with the rifles that have been assembled from Surplus parts by shooters and so are often unrecognized. Any 1903 that is still in its military configuration as last used within the military, whatever that happens to be, is desirable. They too can be considered correct because that was their configuration while last used in the service.
I'm not an expert on the subject by any measure, but there are a lot of guys here on this CSP Forum who certainly are and they can detect original features from those that aren't. I frequently seek their assistance and recommendations.

[louis]

Fred is absolutely correct. If you don't know what you want or what to look for in a 1903 I might make a suggestion that you can do right at home. Go to the gunbroker web site and check out all the 1903's for sale. You'll pick up on it quickly by comparing what each rifle has. Serial numbers,barrels, sights, stocks, condition etc. then if you have any questions come back here and ask. There are plenty of expert folks here willing to help you. You will see the difference in the lower end mid range and high end priced rifles.

[blackhawknj]

Investing is good books is a wise move before buying. I recommend Brophy's The M1903 Springfield.

[firstflabn]

That's an excellent description of the early US troop deployment in WW1. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Merc

I'm trying to get this WWI stuff figured out. The twists and turns that occurred after the totally unprepared US came up with a pretty logical plan to build an army for the European war fascinate me. Resisting Brit and French political pressure to send replacements for their forces instead of organizing an independent American army; losing the potential to produce 100k '03s during the receiver problem; the early phases of the Spanish Flu; the German 1918 spring offensive facilitated by the collapse of Russia late in 1917. That's plenty to upset the soundest plan. If are willing to endure it, here's one more thought on the beancount front:

I have no objection to the one third '03s, two thirds '17s broad estimate on quantities in Europe. It's misleading though. First try a hypothetical: say the entire US effort had consisted of 10 '03s carried to the war in June 1917 and 20 '17s carried over in June 1918. Further assume this hypothetical war also ended in Nov 18. If you said that 90% of the rifles used in the war were '17s, you would be mathematically correct - but would it tell an accurate story of the relative contributions of the two types? In this example, the '03s had 170 rifle-months service while the '17s had only 100 rifle-months. Length of service is at least as important as gross numbers.

While I would love to tell you I had detailed ammo expenditure data by divisions, I don't. So, let's look for another proxy for combat use.

About 42 divisions went to France. I have an army report that shows "Days spent by each division in quiet and active sectors." Only 29 divisions went "into the line." Some others were broken up for reinforcements and some just got there in the waning days of the war and never made it to the front. Anyway, of these 29 divisions, only 10 are National Army - this one third are the units with '17s (there are some exceptions, but this is a very broad gauge, so humor me).

I can't locate the accompanying notes to this chart, but the quiet and active day counts appear to exclude training with the Brits and French. (I never said it was a perfect proxy). So, of the 1,329 quiet days at the front, NA divisions had only 330 (about 25%). Of 905 active days at the front, NA divisions only had 187 (about 20%). That's a good bit short of the two thirds indicated by quantities alone.

Let's look at one other proxy - casualties. Regular Army and National Guard divisions - the ones with '03s (again with some exceptions) suffered two thirds of the casualties among divisions, while the NA divisions only had one third.

So, by these two imperfect proxies - days at the front and casualties - '03s saw from 66-80% of the action in Europe. M1917s would have played a major role had the war continued into the spring of 1919 and the amazing quantities produced made planning for the 1919 spring offensive possible, but in light of their very late appearance in France, it's hard to see how most of the '17s did much more than take two boat rides.

[Fred]

Very interesting information! Thanks!

[Merc]

Very thought provoking. Thanks again.

Merc

[Merc]

Investing is good books is a wise move before buying. I recommend Brophy's The M1903 Springfield.

Thanks for the suggestion. I agree. I'll look on Amazon to see if it's still available.

I came equipped with only a bore light when I bought my M1917. I learned about everything AFTER I bought it and was very lucky to get a shooter that's in pretty nice shape but just as easily could have wound up with junk. I swore I'd never buy a M1903 or any other old rifle without finding everything there is to know about them in advance.

Merc

[Merc]

I went to two large gun shows yesterday to check out the available M1903s and saw several at each show. Average asking price was in the $700 - $800 range. I didn't see anything that really caught my eye except one exceptionally dirty '03 for an asking price of $850 that looked OK in spite of all the dirt but the bore was so dirty that there was no way to check for corrosion or pitting. Can't imagine asking that much money for a rifle without taking the time to make it presentable.

The A3s looked strange with their stamped swivels - think I'll hold out for an '03. Were any A3s made with unstamped parts?

Saw very few M1917s but lots of M1s in the $900 - $1200 range. One seller had 8 for sale. All were exceptionally clean, looked decent and were tagged with barrel dates and measured TE/MW numbers. This seller obviously knew what he was doing. M1s might also be on my wish list but the mechanics are a lot more complicated than a bolt action rifle.

Merc

[louis]

Merc down here in south FL there are no 03's A3's or Garands at the gun shows or the gun shops and not even the pawn shops. Wish I lived near an area where they are out there. Keep hunting you'll find a good one

[PhillipM]

Once accustomed to cock on opening, shooting an M1917 is weird in a match because when you slap the bolt down it will spring back up if not done correctly.

There are ZERO commercial rifles produced today that cock on closing, much to the chagrin of the Enfield lovers.

[Merc]

Merc down here in south FL there are no 03's A3's or Garands at the gun shows or the gun shops and not even the pawn shops. Wish I lived near an area where they are out there. Keep hunting you'll find a good one

I went to a February gun show a few years in a row in Ft. Myers while visiting relatives and can't remember seeing very many old military anything. Lots of modern pistols, rifles, knives and zappers though. There is a Wednesday only flea market at a drive-in movie in Ft. Myers that always had a few guys selling old military rifles. I don't remember the name of the drive-in but I know it's on Rt. 41. The vendor activity peaks during the winter months.

The shows in Western PA are always big and well attended because we're such a heavily deer hunted state. On a few occasions, especially when (you-know-who) would start to talk about gun control, there were shows where the exhibit hall the size of a large super market was filled to capacity and a line of guys circled the parking lot waiting to get in.

Merc

[Merc]

Once accustomed to cock on opening, shooting an M1917 is weird in a match because when you slap the bolt down it will spring back up if not done correctly.

There are ZERO commercial rifles produced today that cock on closing, much to the chagrin of the Enfield lovers.

The next cock on opening rifle I shoot will be the first since everything I currently shoot is cock on closing.

Merc

[rayg]

I went to a February gun show a few years in a row in Ft. Myers while visiting relatives and can't remember seeing very many old military anything. Lots of modern pistols, rifles, knives and zappers though. There is a Wednesday only flea market at a drive-in movie in Ft. Myers that always had a few guys selling old military rifles. I don't remember the name of the drive-in but I know it's on Rt. 41. The vendor activity peaks during the winter months.

The shows in Western PA are always big and well attended because we're such a heavily deer hunted state. On a few occasions, especially when (you-know-who) would start to talk about gun control, there were shows where the exhibit hall the size of a large super market was filled to capacity and a line of guys circled the parking lot waiting to get in.

Merc

Too bad you didn't go to the small antique gun show in Ft Myers held at the same time as the big one you went to there. I go to it every year but it was a lot smaller this year because of the conflict of two show at the same time. But there was an excl condt 1911 dated 03 that looked to be still in all original condt for only $850. The only thing wrong with it was the cartouche was too light to make out. A nice one and I would have picked it up if I didn't have three early 03's already but as I'm writing this, I'm now sorry I didn't get it as that was a good price with money to be made for resale. Ray

[louis]

I'll have to put Ft Meyers on my watch list but it's a trek of more than a 2 hour drive for me.

[Merc]

Too bad you didn't go to the small antique gun show in Ft Myers held at the same time as the big one you went to there. I go to it every year but it was a lot smaller this year because of the conflict of two show at the same time. But there was an excl condt 1911 dated 03 that looked to be still in all original condt for only $850. The only thing wrong with it was the cartouche was too light to make out. A nice one and I would have picked it up if I didn't have three early 03's already but as I'm writing this, I'm now sorry I didn't get it as that was a good price with money to be made for resale. Ray

I'll have to google that one to see if they advertise it on the Internet for time and place since we'll be back next year. No-one's really interested in or appreciates the old stuff but me. My "youngest" is the 1944 Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 1*.

Thanks for the tip.

Merc