Buying a M1903

[lyman]

I’d like to hear opinions. Is my 1925 M1903 with a 1944 HS barrel that was a US service rifle leading up to WW2 and possibly fought in WW2 and then went on to fight the Greek Civil War in the late 1940s more or less valuable than your standard everyday ‘03? Would you go out of your way to look for a Greek returned ‘03? Would you convert a Greek returned ‘03 with it’s special markings to a standard ‘03 by replacing the stock, floorplate and bolt and unpinning the floorplate or not?

Q #1,,no, unless you have some way to know it was USMC used, then it would likely bring a bit of a premium,

Q #2, personally, no, but some collector looking to fill a gap, maybe

Q #3, no, you have altered the rifle, that has been altered, some may say restored, even if it was some rare piece, or tied to some famous unit, ship etc thru CplNorton's or SRS research, it would still be restored, and not as valuable as an original, (but maybe more than a standard rifle,, this part gets murky)


I have a few Greek rifles, from the CMP (and kept the certificate), as well as a few non CMP 03's, and a handful of non CMP A3's, the Greeks may bring the same as a similar non greek in similar condition, even with the certificates, because sometimes folks will pay more for a CMP gun, (this is true with Garands as well)

other markings may or may not increase value, case in point, I sold a nice greasy greek return 03 a few years ago that was NZ marked, or at least the stock was, no idea if it was the original or had been changed at some time in it's life,

[togor]

I would agree that any rifle’s looks and performance should determine it’s value if there’s no provenance. But, as a long time Civil War antique collector, I know if there’s a good story that goes along with the antique, then that will always add value.

The friend who sold me the rifle bought from the CMP in 2001. He had no idea of its history and therefore sold to me as a strangely marked M1903, wearing an 03A3 stock, a new barrel, covered with a hardened preservative that he never tried to clean, never checked things like ME, TE and headspace and never had it to the range. I also had no idea of its history when I bought the rifle but cleaned off all the gunk, checked it out, shot it and then started doing research. I think he would have probably asked more money for it had he known the provenance and I probably would have thought it was cool and paid it. I’m impressed by the rifle’s history and I think it’s one of the more interesting guns that I own.

A couple of comments. First, "Buy the gun not the story" still seems like good advice. Second, I honestly don't think the Greek Civil war is going to become a touchstone for enough US-based collectors to create much of a market. The M1903 rifles that came back from Greece were by-and-large mixmasters that had been through multiple rebuild cycles. Sure there are niches, but the reality, and this is also true with M1 Garands, is that so damn many of them were produced that only a small percentage of them will be of true collector interest in the long run. That SA Garand with an August '43 barrel and correct stock might have been a lot of fun for someone to correct, but chances are that he will not be able to sell it for the money that went into buying and correcting it, but that's OK because hobbies are a way of exchanging money for fun and keeping husbands home at night.

[Merc]

A couple of comments. First, "Buy the gun not the story" still seems like good advice. Second, I honestly don't think the Greek Civil war is going to become a touchstone for enough US-based collectors to create much of a market. The M1903 rifles that came back from Greece were by-and-large mixmasters that had been through multiple rebuild cycles. Sure there are niches, but the reality, and this is also true with M1 Garands, is that so damn many of them were produced that only a small percentage of them will be of true collector interest in the long run. That SA Garand with an August '43 barrel and correct stock might have been a lot of fun for someone to correct, but chances are that he will not be able to sell it for the money that went into buying and correcting it, but that's OK because hobbies are a way of exchanging money for fun and keeping husbands home at night.

My collecting hobby went in many directions - Civil War, WW1, WW2, old watches, old electrical, old photography. I particularly like a good story, always have, so that’s what interests me. The Greek Civil War was an unexpected story and another direction. It’s kept me busy and off the streets. It’s definitely a mixmaster but it’s a great shooter. Practically all rifles that went to war are mixmasters. I’ll keep it that way.

[togor]

"Old electrical" as in what? Tube radios?

[Merc]

"Old electrical" as in what? Tube radios?

I wish I’d kept my parent’s old Zenith floor model radio from the 1930s and their old Crosley 10” TV from the 1940s with a continuous tuner.

I like old industrial electric meters since I used to repair them in the 60s and 70s. I have some that date back into the late 1800s that are really interesting. I had to make parts to keep the really old stuff working since replacement parts were no longer available.

D3CEA839-D255-4EA8-92B3-84030A359AAC.jpg

Here’s a GE DC KWH meter from the early 1900s that’s interesting. It once belonged to the streetcar company in Pittsburgh. It was rated 3000 amps right through the meter. I’ll send more pics when the light is better.

FE425C0A-3B28-4876-B913-33DA03AD8F4D.jpg

Here’s a Weston DC Voltmeter from the late 1800s.

[P51MUSTANG]

I agree with Togor 100 percent.... You will see many sellers trying to sell you the story instead of the rifle. Let us know what you wind up getting.....

[Merc]

I agree with Togor 100 percent.... You will see many sellers trying to sell you the story instead of the rifle. Let us know what you wind up getting.....

I bought the rifle and only discovered that it was a Greek return when I investigated the unusual markings. The seller is a friend and he bought it from the CMP in 2002. He had no idea that it was a Greek return. He never cleaned off the preservative, never looked into it’s past and never shot it. It sat in his safe for 17 years.

It’s a mixmaster for sure. The finish on the 1944 HS barrel, 03A3 Remington bolt and Springfield receiver is largely undisturbed. The 03A3 stock is in good condition with the usual handling marks and one small dowel pinned repair near the receiver. The outer hardware is all Springfield including the butt plate which I originally thought was an 03A3 Remington but turned out to be a 1925 Springfield. It went through multiple arsenal rebuilds. All the measurements are good and it shoots decent groups at 100 yards.

I could replace the odd parts, except the barrel, to make it more original but then it would be just another parts gun. The existing work was done by an arsenal and the mechanical parts are like new. Changing anything would destroy the history of the rifle which makes it interesting (at least to me). The rifle tells its own story but you have to dig. It was made too late (1925) for WW1 but needed a new barrel before being shipped to the Greeks so it probably saw extensive service during WW2, and the marks on the stock, bolt and floor plate are consistent with Greek Civil War service.

I might be open to buying another ‘03 if a more correct example is found.

[P51MUSTANG]

Still a nice rifle.... I have a RIA I got back in 2002 as well. Does the floorplate have a B stamped on it?

[Merc]

Still a nice rifle.... I have a RIA I got back in 2002 as well. Does the floorplate have a B stamped on it?

Yes, mine does have a B stamped on the floorplate. I understand that the B means that floorplate is pinned and can’t be opened. The stock has the last 4 digits of my rifle’s S/N plus the last 4 digits of a different S/N right below indicating that Greeks had the stock on a different rifle at some point in time.

It doesn’t surprise me to find so many 03A3 parts on a M1903. They fit, work and were probably easier to obtain in the late 40s than the original ‘03 parts.

[Merc]

I assumed that the '03 was rebuilt by a US arsenal before being sent to Greece in 47 or 48. But after seeing the new HS barrel, the dark undisturbed bluing, the pinned floor plate, the 03A3 bolt and stock, I suspect that the Greeks did all this work themselves.

They had the rifle in their possession for more than 50 years. Why did they suddenly decide to return thousands of old rifles to the US? Did the CMP request that they be returned?

[lyman]

I assumed that the '03 was rebuilt by a US arsenal before being sent to Greece in 47 or 48. But after seeing the new HS barrel, the dark undisturbed bluing, the pinned floor plate, the 03A3 bolt and stock, I suspect that the Greeks did all this work themselves.

They had the rifle in their possession for more than 50 years. Why did they suddenly decide to return thousands of old rifles to the US? Did the CMP request that they be returned?

they were lend lease, (IIRC) and obsolete, I would guess they could only return them (vs sell them to other importers like the mausers and enfields )

and I bet CMP waived some cash in front of them for the ammo purchased as well

[Merc]

they were lend lease, (IIRC) and obsolete, I would guess they could only return them (vs sell them to other importers like the mausers and enfields )

and I bet CMP waived some cash in front of them for the ammo purchased as well

The '03s were obsolete when we sent them to Greece but I'm glad to see that they took the time and effort to maintain and preserve them. I wonder how many M1s are sitting in warehouses around the world.

[John Beard]

I assumed that the '03 was rebuilt by a US arsenal before being sent to Greece in 47 or 48. But after seeing the new HS barrel, the dark undisturbed bluing, the pinned floor plate, the 03A3 bolt and stock, I suspect that the Greeks did all this work themselves.

They had the rifle in their possession for more than 50 years. Why did they suddenly decide to return thousands of old rifles to the US? Did the CMP request that they be returned?

As noted by lyman, the rifles were loaned to the Greeks. When the Greeks no longer had need for the rifles, they properly notified the U.S. Army and requested disposition instructions. As required by law, the Army notified the CMP that the rifles were available and the CMP paid to have the rifles shipped back to the U.S.

J.B.

[Merc]

Thanks to John and Lyman, I now have a better understanding of how the process of purchasing rifles from the CMP works. Do you know when they were returned?

A friend bought the ‘03 from the CMP in July, 2002 and promptly put it in his gun safe for 17 years. He has a keen interest in milsurp rifle’s but simply put it away without removing the original Greek partially solidified axel-grease preservative, checking out the critical measurements and shooting it. He also had no idea that it was a Greek return. I kinda feel bad for my friend. He never got to know the old war horse.

I appreciate the effort the Greeks put into preserving the rifle. The preservative may have been difficult to remove, but it did a great job of preventing rust. The measurements are fine and it’s an accurate shooter.

[lyman]

Thanks to John and Lyman, I now have a better understanding of how the process of purchasing rifles from the CMP works. Do you know when they were returned?

A friend bought the ‘03 from the CMP in July, 2002 and promptly put it in his gun safe for 17 years. He has a keen interest in milsurp rifle’s but simply put it away without removing the original Greek partially solidified axel-grease preservative, checking out the critical measurements and shooting it. He also had no idea that it was a Greek return. I kinda feel bad for my friend. He never got to know the old war horse.

I appreciate the effort the Greeks put into preserving the rifle. The preservative may have been difficult to remove, but it did a great job of preventing rust. The measurements are fine and it’s an accurate shooter.

that time frame is right, early 2000's, and they sold out in a year or so (some varieties quicker)

1917's,
RIA low number
RIA high number
Rem 1903
rem 1903 C stock,
SA low number
SA high number

and a few other options I am forgetting,

there was a lot of stuff returned, I bought a few myself,


about the same time the 22's were pulled from the units (and a lot of schools) and sold off as well,