Official Use of the Term "Enfield" for the M1917

[dalbert]

I don't recall another recent thread where a counter-argument was so soundly defeated...

In regards to Skennerton's use of "Calibre" vs. "Caliber," it may have been because he's Australian, and uses that spelling himself.

I will make one small caveat to 5MadFarmers assertion that the U.S. use of the term "Calibre" died around 1880. The 15,000 original Colt Thompson Submachine Guns, manufactured in 1921-22 are marked "Calibre," and were adopted by 3 branches of the U.S. Military. That being said, they used the "Caliber" spelling in reference to the caliber of the TSMG.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[5MadFarmers]

I will make one small caveat to 5MadFarmers assertion that the U.S. use of the term "Calibre" died around 1880. The 15,000 original Colt Thompson Submachine Guns, manufactured in 1921-22 are marked "Calibre," and were adopted by 3 branches of the U.S. Military.

Interesting. I was unaware of that one. Thus incorrect but no error.....

Languages change over time. I suspect it has to do with how common the word is and the age of the user. When the trapdoor manual changed back and forth I figured it was two generations. Caliber is pretty common relatively speaking and thus changed faster than some other words. That somebody was using it in 1921 would bespeak of a foreigner or somebody old. John Thompson perhaps? During his youth calibre was still in common usage. I have no idea which it was obviously.

Caliber, center, pitcher. "er" is American usage. "re" is Brit.

It started as "re" in the US also.

Common words change faster. Uncommon ones much slower if at all. Musical term: "timbre" is still common usage. Uncommon word.

Enfield. Set up due to a visit to the US gun factories. The Whitworth Commission's visit to the US resulted in the establishment of Enfield using American machinery. Ames sent much machinery and a master armorer to Enfield as part of that. The master armorer? James Butler. Formerly of Harper's Ferry.

It always circles around.

[5MadFarmers]

Aw, that other bit.

I don't recall another recent thread where a counter-argument was so soundly defeated...

It's a message board. No different than sitting around the cracker barrel in an old general store. It doesn't matter. Life matters. What they called that rifle a century ago is pointless trivia.

Two WW2 manuals. The first had "Enfield" on the cover. It's been a while and I may be misremembering but I recall one of the changes between the two was destruction of the rifle. How to make it useless. '17s were in large use in the P.i.. When it fell the Japanese ended up with them. The two would be related. I may be misremembering.

[usmc69]

The first 1917 manual: Printed 1918.

[Dan Shapiro]

Someone likes playing "Devils Advocate". I don't mind. The arcane trivia alone is worth the admission price of "free".

When dealing with the Ordnance people, it's surprising that only the State Dept is called "Foggy Bottom".

[emmagee1917]

Dang it , you all caused me to run out of popcorn again.
Chris

[Shooter5]

...from the CMP website - http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/m1917.htm

The M1917 Enfield, "P17 Enfield", "American Enfield", formally named "United States Rifle, cal .30, Model of 1917" was an American modification and production of the British .303 caliber P14 rifle developed and manufactured during the period 1917-1918.

[dalbert]

Earliest M1917 Manual

The first 1917 manual: Printed 1918.

USMC69,

This could be a subject for debate. The green colored manual examples in my photo below pre-date the manual in your photo for their listed origin date. Their origin date is October 8, 1917. It was subsequently revised twice, on January 16, 1918, and May 7, 1918. The examples I have are all the same, and their publication date of May 7, 1918 does follow the brown manual publication date of November 13, 1917 in your photo. However, that manual was actually printed after May 1, 1918, based on the dates listed on the cover.

I need to see if I can find a photo of an earlier edition of the green manual. It may be in one of the 3 published books on the M1917 subject.



David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[PhillipM]

In my book 'Winchester- The Gun that Won the West' the rifle is described as the modified Enfield.

[RC20]

I understand and appreciate both sides of the discussion. I work in a number of very technical fields. Calling something other than what it is not only can cause confusion, it can cause serious problems.

On the other hand there is the real world where many do not live and breathe technical, a common understood description works just fine. Most people are in that arena, even if their job is a very technical one, the live and breather technical at work and the rest of the world is different. It human and nothing we can do about that.

For the Model of 1917 rifle, you could not have come up with a more twisted pedigree if you tried. Designed in England in one caliber, converted to another, then shipped overseas to be produced in the US and then converted a second time to another caliber. Sheese.

You can imagine that in the Philippines calling the Model of 1917 (Rifle) an Enfield was good shorthand to quickly covey and understand what was being discussed. In context there was no confusion as there were no SMLEs about. Not so good in WWI where there would be at least confusion in cross British and US discussions. Huh, what, are you sure you are talking 30-06, I don't need nor can use 303. Probably not as bad since the Brit forces used SMLE, but training appears to have used P1914s.

I can also see a group of WWI troops talking about the M1917, one is infantry, one is machine gun, one is MP. You have a rifle and a bayonet both called M1917, a machine gun and a pistol, sheese, what's a guy to do?

Local slang and shorthand come to predominate, you sure don't want to say (nor care that’s technically what it is) United State Rifle Model of 1917 30 Caliber.

People in general ID with stories, stores have names not numbers. Mustang, Sherman, Panther (sometimes a number sticks out like an 88 but in general an identify name resonates better with most people other than the ones that are really "in to it"

What it really amounts to is there is no right way or wrong way. There is technically incorrect, but if my brother and I are talking 1917s, we both know it’s the rifles, if it’s the bayonet, then it’s the 1917 bayonet or the pistol (i.e. its never come up with it would be phrased as 1917 revolver. We don't have to worry about the machine gun!

In WWI they had a pamphlet describing the gun and its history and origination. Good move and it put it in context with what they would see overseas. Looks a lot alike, but it ain't the same caliber.

And someone asks me "what is that rifle you are shooting" I tell them it’s a Model of 1917 30-06. If I said 30 caliber they would go huh? Nope, it’s a 30-06 and they know what cartridge it uses. I try to keep it on track as to the most used WWI rifle and a bit of that background.

So, no right or wrong, just do the best you can with the people you are dealing with.

[PhillipM]

In WWI it was Model of 1917. No soldiers were calling anything an M1917, the nomenclature hadn't been invented.

[5MadFarmers]

Calling something other than what it is not only can cause confusion, it can cause serious problems.

Particularly where the item isn't common. Thus the "Standard Nomenclature Lists" which resulted from WW1.

I can also see a group of WWI troops talking about the M1917, one is infantry, one is machine gun, one is MP. You have a rifle and a bayonet both called M1917, a machine gun and a pistol, sheese, what's a guy to do?

Stay away from Artillery where the gun, mount, sight, etc., all had a model number. "Model 15 gun on Model 3A mount sporting the Model 13 sight."

Makes the head spin.

[RC20]

In WWI it was Model of 1917. No soldiers were calling anything an M1917, the nomenclature hadn't been invented.

The point is not to contend specifically what anyone called it (we know the range of that) its to discuss how to deal with it and the terms. Its an example of what they could have called it, the confusion and the fact that as noted there is a plethora of 1917 designated equipment.

I of course was no where in the vicinity of the soldiers who served so its a guess as to what terms they used. I seriously doubt they used the full Model of 1917 designation.

I suspect they referred to it in all sorts of ways.

We do know that Sgt York referred to it as "that British rifle". Probably a lot of servicemen who trained in England also referred to it Enfield, P17 etc.

Casual phrasesology if you will supersedes official designation in casual conversation unless its a very formal and technical conversions and even then within the discussion it will get shorted for ease of conversation once everyone is on the same pate. I.e. This is a Meeting of the Model of 1917 standards group.

Often probably simply referred to as my rifle.

[RC20]

Particularly where the item isn't common. Thus the "Standard Nomenclature Lists" which resulted from WW1.



Stay away from Artillery where the gun, mount, sight, etc., all had a model number. "Model 15 gun on Model 3A mount sporting the Model 13 sight."

Makes the head spin.

Yep!

[5MadFarmers]

We do know that Sgt York referred to it as "that British rifle".

He referred to the SMLE thusly. His division was due to serve with the Brits. They were issued Brit kit. Orders were changed and they turned it in.