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Perhaps way off topic but given the range of these fascinating discussions…something that's that been nagging: what are the USG official/formal/informal terms for the US issued Mosin-Nagants (Remington, Westinghouse)!
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the “Russian Three-line Rifle, Caliber 7.62 mm
Phillip McGregor (OFC)
"I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthurComment
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Good to know, but what was actually stamped on the rifle? Part of this issue regarding the 1917 sometimes forgets to mention what was actually stamped on the US issued rifles, which was actually what again, I don't recall just offhand?Comment
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Phillip McGregor (OFC)
"I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthurComment
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Last edited by 5MadFarmers; 10-06-2014, 09:29.Comment
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In the "For What it's worth" category, let me submit the following information.
There was a book entitled HISTORY OF THE WORLD WAR, authored by Francis A. March PHD, with an introduction by General Peyton C. March (Chief of staff U. S. Army) and published by The United Publishers of the United States and Canada in 1919.
General Peyton C. March in the introduction dated November 14, 1918, identifies himself as the Chief of Staff, United States Army. He also contributes a chapter(LVII entitled, Behind America's Battle Line) and I cite the following quote from that chapter:
"Shortly after my installation as Chief of Staff I adopted the principle of interchanged of the personnel of the various staff corps of the War Department with men who had training in France, and in the application of this principle place as heads of the various bureaus officers selected on account of their ability and experience in the system of warfare as conducted in France.
At this time, also, I found that the divisions organized in our armies were still regarded as separate units, designated by different titles in accordance with their origins. This made three kinds of divisions, in the United states Army - the Regular army, the National Guard, and the National army divisions. All these distinctions were abolished and the entire army consolidated into the United States army, without regard to the source from which drawn. The source of supply....."
My father enlisted in the National Guard March 23, 1917 and the guard was mustered into federal service on June 28, 1917. He was discharged from the National Guard in 1917 and commissioned as a 2nd Lt in the National Guard while in Camp Beauregard, LA in September 1917. I remember him telling me that upon their deployment to France with the AEF, they turned in their "Springfields" and being issued "Enfields". He served with the 114th Engineers until transferred to the 26th Engineers November 8, 1918. He served in the St. Mihiel offensive, the Toul Sector and the Meuse Argonne . He was discharged from the ARMY OF THE UNITED STATES at Camp Meade Maryland April 1919.
I am surprised that no one has mentioned that the U.S. Army purchased and used in training M1905 Mk II 3* Ross rifles.Comment
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That is some neat family history. What Division was the 114th Engr attached to?Comment
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And interesting comment on the guns they had originally (1903s) as well as what they got then issued which (1917s or SMLE?)
And yes all the other training rifles that were used, most interesingComment
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Read Emory Upton's book for the motivation. While we call them the "National Guard" during WW1 that's a legal fiction - the first thing they did was activate the National Guard, discharge them, then draft them. Dirty pool.
39th Division.My father enlisted in the National Guard March 23, 1917 and the guard was mustered into federal service on June 28, 1917. He was discharged from the National Guard in 1917 and commissioned as a 2nd Lt in the National Guard while in Camp Beauregard, LA in September 1917.
The 114th Engineers were part of the 39th. The 39th shipped over in July of 1918 and was designated as a "Depot" Division upon arrival. Casualties that summer were higher than expected with a number of divisions either turned into "depot" divisions or broken up outright for the manpower. 31, 34, 38, 41, 83, 84, 86 were all broken up. 39,40,71,85 were used as depot divisions.I remember him telling me that upon their deployment to France with the AEF, they turned in their "Springfields" and being issued "Enfields". He served with the 114th Engineers until transferred to the 26th Engineers November 8, 1918. He served in the St. Mihiel offensive, the Toul Sector and the Meuse Argonne . He was discharged from the ARMY OF THE UNITED STATES at Camp Meade Maryland April 1919.
The Regular Army regiments were smashed together to form Divisions with the USMC also smashed into that mix. The Regular Army and National Guard divisions were sent to "new" bases in the South while their home bases were used to assemble and train the National Army divisions. Once the National Army divisions began shipping they formed 13 more divisions with "Regular Army" numbers (8-13). The 8th and 10th were far enough along to begin shipping in November but I don't show the rest shipping.
Long story.I am surprised that no one has mentioned that the U.S. Army purchased and used in training M1905 Mk II 3* Ross rifles.Comment
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Oh, please do tell! We all got popcorn and this has been so enlightening to say the least. What I know of the Ross indicates it didn't do well and Canada dropped it.
As long as we're at it; what were all the makes/models of rifles used by Uncle Sam during WW1? It sounds like at least 4 with the Model 1903 and Model 1917 topping the list with lesser participation by the Mosin-Nagant and Ross. At this point, it appears the US was in a pickle regarding small arms and even the sidearm matter was compromised with the military forced to adopt the Colt and S&W M1917 revolvers to make up for shortfalls; if I am getting this all correct?Last edited by Guest; 10-08-2014, 07:15.Comment
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For 5MadFarmers
This thread has strayed far afield from the original subject. How about one final FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH.
The 114th Engineers was organized in August 1917 as the Sapper Regiment of the 39th "Dixie" division and was comprised of National Guard units from Arkansas, Louisiana, and Mississippi. The strength was bolstered by officers from the Officers Reserve Corps . The nucleus of the organization came from the NG Infantry units The organization was bolstered by draftees mobilized first at Camp Pike
Arkansas and It trained at Camp Beauregard, Louisiana . It sailed to France on the USS WILHEIMINA landing at Brest France. From Brest they went to training camp at Cherost Cher after a 72 hour train ride on the 40 & 8 French rail cars. It was here that the lost 22 men to Spanish Influenza. The 39 Division was redesignated as the 5th Depot Replacement Division. The Engineer regiment was reassigned to the First Army, First Corps and "entered the trenches" on 1 October 1918. My father served with the regiment until 8 November 1918 when he was transferred to 26 Division First Army. He always told me that they were transferred to become infantry replacements for that "meat grinder-the Argonne. The Armistice saved them from that.
This information was extracted from the History and Roster of the 114th Engineers 1918:1919. The history indicates that FOUR officers from the NG were transferred to the unit, but upon reviewing the roster I find many more than four-many of whom I knew personally. My father remained active in the NG and the American Legion after WWI.
I knew personally many of the 114th veterans. I served with at least two of them in the State Guard prior to my enlistment in the USN in WWII with the son of a 114th vet.Comment
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Hi Shooter5
5MadFarmers is correct.
The Ross Rifle story is long and tenuous. The U.S. Army did buy ~ 20,000 Mk II Ross rifles for training in the US. I believe that most of them were MK II 3*. On these an ordnance mark was added and I believe that the U.S. did add its own serial number. They were sold through the DCM in the 1920's and 1930's until someone objected to the enlarged chamber. (Long Story) I believe they were sold for $5.00 each with a case of 1000-1500 rounds of .303 ammo for an additional $5.00. I do not believe that any of these were ever used except for training and none, to the best of my knowledge, ever went to France with the U.S. Forces.
Incidentally it was the MK III Ross with the interrupted screw thread locking lugs that gave the Canadian Forces problems in France. I do not believe that any of the MK II's made it to France with the Canadian Forces though they were used at the training camp in England. They might have been better served if they had used the MK II in lieu of the MK III
I at one time had a MII 5* which I later donated to the Fort Garry Horse Museum because they had used that particular rifle in training in Canada. I do not know of any serial number on a Ross on the medal except for the commercial versions. I have disassembled mine many times and found only the S/N on the butt.
You are quite correct-the national armories were never able to adequately supply the WWI American army with rifles. Most of the US troops were issued the M1917. Even through the post war period the number of "Springfields" (M1903's)produced never equaled the production numbers of the "Enfields" (M1917's).
I do not believe that any SMLE (English Enfields) were ever used for training in the US. I do believe that some American troops that served with the British forces were issued SMLE's, Lewis LMG, and Vickers HMG's. When they returned to US control for service with the French, they turned them in and were equipped with M1917's(Enfields) , Chauchats LMG, and Hotchkiss HMG's.
I believe that the only other use of foreign rifles by American forces overseas was the ill fated expedition to Siberia when the army used Mosin-Nagants (Sp?), the Russian rifle.
FWIWLast edited by Cosine26; 10-09-2014, 03:04.Comment
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The Dixie division was the 31'st, not the 39'th.Phillip McGregor (OFC)
"I am neither a fire arms nor a ballistics expert, but I was a combat infantry officer in the Great War, and I absolutely know that the bullet from an infantry rifle has to be able to shoot through things." General Douglas MacArthurComment
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Hi 5MadFarmer
I do have pictures of the 114th in training at Camp Beauregard but personal photography was not what it is today. Some of the pictures are only about 1"x2" and the resolution is not good. I have one picture of my father holding a rifle with an attached bayonet that looks like a M1903. I have several pictures of troops assembled with rifles but the pictures are the miniatures and resolution is very poor. The rifles almost look like M1917's.Comment
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Hi PhillipM
My Error. I was not sure.Comment
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