Official Use of the Term "Enfield" for the M1917

[5MadFarmers]

He always told me that they were transferred to become infantry replacements for that "meat grinder-the Argonne.

It's nothing less than head shaking that, after seeing British, French, and German casualty figures for three years, anyone thought it'd be different for us.

My father remained active in the NG and the American Legion after WWI.
I knew personally many of the 114th veterans. I served with at least two of them in the State Guard prior to my enlistment in the USN in WWII with the son of a 114th vet.

They had to reconstitute the NG after the war. By activating them, discharging them, then drafting them they removed their NG committment.

You've kind of figured out you're now old right?

Son of a WW1 vet. WW2 service. You've seen much. The first real memories I have of my grandfather was about when he turned 84. He boarded the boat for France in August of 1918. I suspect the members of his unit considered him old as he was 31. He was ancient whereas I was very young. I found his stories fascinating. Somebody stole his campaign hat while he was in training. A meeting with the Regimental Commander ensued. In no uncertain terms he was told he'd buy a replacement. Yet we're to believe that Corporal York somehow acquired an M-1903 instead of his issue M-1917? Left out is the fate of the M-1917. In the story it doesn't matter. In real life, in that era, he'd have been behind bars on bread and water. They were forthright and very stern in that era. Took balls the size of automobiles to charge into machine guns en masse. They did it. Repeatedly. They prided themselves on it. One division was the "tough hombres." Another was the "rock of the Marne." Tough SOBs they were.

Made of steel.

WW2 vets faced a different world. Machine war. It wasn't a sure bet we'd win. You'd know that - you lived it. The war mattered so you won it. Today we mull around and lose instead but the wars are brushfires and don't matter much. So I never saw the WW2 generation as the tough SOBs the WW1 generation was. My grandfather versus my uncles. He was tougher. Not that your generation wasn't tough. The Uncle serviced through Sicily on up. He was a tough dude.

Men of wood.

Today? I think we're men of paper mache.

Makes me wonder if the 1861-1865 vets were made of pure solid granite. Except I know better. It was the WW1 vets. Those were the tough SOBs. Then again maybe that was just my grandfather.

I did some "shows" at the NG base here for some years. Streams of vets from various eras came through. One was an Army engineer in WW2. He picked up the M-1917 I had and mentioned he'd trained on them early in WW2.

[Cosine26]

5MadFarmers
Yeah, I'm old. I flew fifty missions low level night in B-26's during the Korean War, flew B-29's and B47's with SAC during the Cold War. It's for certain that I have more years behind me than ahead of me.
I became a Sgt. in the State Guard at 16 because I was the only one who could disassemble and reassemble a M1917.
Look at www.bombgroup17.com
Regards.

[5MadFarmers]

5MadFarmers
Yeah, I'm old. I flew fifty missions low level night in B-26's during the Korean War, flew B-29's and B47's with SAC during the Cold War. It's for certain that I have more years behind me than ahead of me.
I became a Sgt. in the State Guard at 16 because I was the only one who could disassemble and reassemble a M1917.
Look at www.bombgroup17.com
Regards.

That entire B-26/B-26 thing confuses people. The A-26 should have been renumbered when the role changed. A-65 or something. The A-36 Apache became the P-51 Mustang when the role changed so the A-26 Invader should have been renumbered when the role changed. No confusion with the Martin. As in Martin B-26 of course. "One a day in Tampa Bay." MacDill AFB. Later an Air Division with two? wings of B-47s. The hotline was still there when I arrived. B-47. Forgotten bomber. I served with a guy who was a Navigator on B-36s. Another was an EB-66 pilot. I thought they were old then... No, I'm not going to stop that. You're obviously sharp as a tack and don't need people pretending otherwise. Down that path are people wanting to chew your food for you.

I became a Sgt. in the State Guard at 16 because I was the only one who could disassemble and reassemble a M1917.

Therein lies the true story of the Ross rifles. It's hidden in that statement. Two pieces in fact. Also those "British Rifles" that everyone goes on about when mentioning York.

At the start of WW1 it became obvious that there was a rifle shortage. Everywhere. The British contracted for rifles in the US. Pattern 13 rifles.
Pattern 13 rifles were the British response to the Ross.
The Ross was a response to the Mausers used in the Boer War. In the open spaces of South Africa distance shooting was a factor. Mausers were superior in that regard. Thus the Ross. Thus the Pattern 13.
In the trenches of WW1 it was discovered that a new game was on. Distance shooting wasn't so important. Thus the alteration of the Pattern 13 to .303. Why? Commonality with the rest of the arms. Hang on to this piece.
When the US entered the war it was obvious the armory/arsenal wouldn't be able to keep up. Their gun was questionable and their manufacturing methods wrong. At the same time there were three factories churning out rifles for the British and one for the Russians.
The Pattern 14 was foisted on the Ordnance Bureau. They balked. They didn't want them. They put up as many objections as they could dream up. One of which was "commonality of caliber." With what? We had no machine guns. In any event they won that round. Production of the Enfields for the US was long delayed as a result.
Krags and M-1903s were recalled from whereever they could get them. This sucked military grade rifles right out of the system. To include those in the Philippines.
Thus the Nagants and Ross rifles. M-1903s were being used by the Regulars and National Guard. Attrition was high with production low. Based on the RiA marked M-1917 barrels I suspect they gave consideration of converting the arsenal and armory to making them. For all kinds of reasons that wouldn't work. So M-1903s were being burned up with M-1917s coming online. Ross and Nagants were needed for "home defense" type stuff. Guarding shipyards, trains, etc. Remember there was a very large German/American population. Spies and sabatouers around every corner. During WW2 my grandfather was a guard in a shipyard. Right about in the middle of the country. Protecting against whom? Japanese spies apparently. Air raid wardens in Kansas? Yup. People panic.
When the US troops arrived in France they were due to serve in one of three areas: with the Brits, French, or Pershing. Those going to the Brits or French received gear from them. "Commonality of supply." With me so far?

Why did the Canadians drop the Ross? "It was a bad gun." Not really. "Commonality of supply." That.

In 1936 they went to Mac with the request to adopt the new M1 in .276. He said "no." No doubt in very strong terms. Why? "Commonality." .30-06 was the caliber of the M-1903s. That didn't matter. It was also the caliber of the entire stock of machine guns. That did. Thing aircraft armament. Changing the caliber in the rifle would result in it changing everywhere. In 1936? Who would pay for it?

Still following?

In 1917, April, we had 3 plants turning out Pattern 14 rifles at a rate better than 3X what the Armory could do under full wartime augmentation. We also had plants turning out Vickers and Lewis machine guns. The US army had a couple of useless machine guns and maybe some old Gatlings. The cartridge plants were churning out .303 for the Brits. So we had the plant making rifles, machine guns, and cartridges in huge volume in .303. That was stopped. Why? "Theoretically the .30-06 is superior to the .303."

Talk about the cart dragging the horse around.

Again, that caused a trainwreck in rifle supply. Which drained the Krags and '03s from everywhere. Ross and Nagants backfilled where possible. "The Spruce Army!" Yup. In Washington they were cutting down Spruce for aircraft. The guns issued to the guys there? Winchesters. Why? "No more military grade guns available."

That is the story of the "British gun" in the York story, the Ross story, and the trainwreck that was the Ordnance Bureau all at once.

The Ordnance Bureau had egg on their face. Big time. What did they do? Paid Browning 1.5 million to develop a squad automatic. Until that went online they badmouthed the Chauchat. Was the Chauchat the disaster that the O.D. press had left us the impression of? Well, the AEF decided to pretty much finish up the war with that instead of fielding the BAR. Kind of points to an answer doesn't it?

Cosine flew B-26 in Korea. 50 missions at night. That too must have taken balls the size of automobiles.

State Guard. Created when the government activated the National Guard. Wonder what they were armed with in 1918? Ross? Nagants? Winchesters?

[Cosine26]

Our State Guard Company was issued 50 like new M1917's and two 1928A1 Thompsons. My TO&E weapon was the 28A1 but we only broke them out at the range for familiarization firing. My rifle was an Eddystone S/N 160086. We had two weeks of modified infantry training at Comp Shelby, Miss. Shot those M1917,s across the NM course sans the 1000 yard stage using obsolete M1 ball. Those Enfield's kicked a 140 pound teenager around until I discovered that a canteen cover could be slipped over the butt as a recoil pad. Learned to shoot craps on an army blanket and drink 3.2 beer. Real adventure for a teenager. My 'First Shirt' and Captain were 114th WWI vets who served in the AEF with my father. A real education!
I do not know what happened to the rifles. I made a deal with my father- if I finished my Junior high school year he would sign for me to enter the USN. I did and he did so I enlisted at 17 and entered the maelstrom of WWII. Served 13 months sea duty with nine months in the ETO.

[PhillipM]

Mississippi got rid of 3.2 beer just a few years ago. You should write a book, Cosine26, it would be a good read.

My maternal grandfather was drafted for the great war. When they asked him what he did as a civilian, he replied, "butcher". Based on his profession, the army decided he would best serve the nation as a cook, which may very well have saved his life. He made it to France and in his papers where it lists rifle qualification is written N/A. He had a heart attack and died feeding his chickens in 1970 when I was two years old.

[RC20]

For some perspective, I found this manual.

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/docrepository/M1917_rifle.pdf

[free1954]

great link sir. thanks for posting. and thanks to all who contributed to this very interesting thread.

[RC20]

You are welecome, I thought it was a pretty interesting find per the topic.

And I agree, its been a great thread, off track into interesting areas and I learned a lot. You got to like that!

[AlanD]

When the Model 1917 was issued to the British Home Guard in WW2 it was often referred to (incorrectly) colloquially as the "Springfield". Some modern day reseachers have put two and two together and come up with five, thinking that Model 1903 rifles were issued to the British Home Guard, which is not the case.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

[RC20]

When I was a kid, my dad built up a Sportorized 1903, I don't know what form it was in (maybe bare action) and he put it in a Stock (we have the gun today sans the original barrel)

We always called it the Springfield or the 06. Not a clue correct was 1903.

Frankly I was not into them until the last 4 years and got to understand what was correct and what was not. However, inside the family we all knew what we were talking about.

[dalbert]

WWII Enfield Rifle Quiz

Here's another item to document common use of the term "Enfield" for the M1917 Rifle during WWII. I had forgotten about it, and ran across it today while going through some of my Thompson paper items.

It's from a stack of personal effects from a WWII soldier that I purchased long ago. This was a quiz that covered the Thompson, the M1917 "Enfield" Rifle, and the Ithaca Model 37 Shotgun. Incidentally, we printed out about 75 of the Thompson quizzes, and had a quiz session for our members during one of our annual meetings of The American Thompson Association a few years ago.

WWII_Enfield_Quiz_Web.jpg

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

[RC20]

Nice addition to the discussion. Well done