Lubricating the cartridges?

[slamfire]

Your "rage against the machine" should admit a greased cartridge in an unsupported rimless chamber is damned dangerous, (1903), especially a low number receiver.

You ought to explain what you mean by unsupported cartridge. If you mean a cartridge not held in place by a breech mechanism, than what will happen will be a burst case. This is well explained in Chin Vol 4, Chapter 1, Blowback.

As for a low number receiver, these things blew up back then, and continue to blow up now. Firing a rifle made in a factory that did not have temperature gauges to control the forging or heat treatment temperatures is a real risk. No amount of hand waving or band aid cures will fix the problem with a burnt receiver.

[fguffey]

There is case head protrusion and there is unsupported case head and then there are reloaders that do not measure before and again after. There was a time on this forum members claimed the 03 and M1917 had .175” case head protrusion and no one knew how thick the case head was from the top of the cup above the web to the case head. I measure case head protrusion and I measure case head thickness. If there had been any truth to the .175” case head protrusion the case head would have less than .020” case head support.

Then there are those that never measure case head expansion; I have no infatuation with greasing by bullets but If I did I would use my thick headed cases. My thick headed cases have a case head thickness of .260”, there is a small amount of safety built into the case with the thick head when testing a suspect receiver and heavy loads and a rifle that has an unknown case head protrusion/unsupported case head.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Then there is the grease, it reminds me of one of those ‘The shadow’ things as in “Who knows?”. Straight into the 80s there were additives in grease, lead was used to dampen impact and shock.

F. Guffey

[Tuna]

There were some military cartridges that were lubricated before they were fired. Both Italy and Japan had machine guns that required the rounds to be lubricated before firing.

[fguffey]

There were some military cartridges that were lubricated before they were fired. Both Italy and Japan had machine guns that required the rounds to be lubricated before firing.

Correct, they did not have John Browning designing their machine guns they built machine guns that did not work unless they greased their bullets. Again, I want nothing between the case and chamber but air and I have no infatuation with fire forming cases by lubing the case and or chamber. And as the latest claim states; bench resters full length sized their cases; not one of them can tell me the difference in length between the case length from the shoulder of the case and case head and the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face but I hear it every day; bench resters have been full length sizing there cases for years and I ask; What does that mean?".

If the world famous shooter is greasing his bullets why are bench resters bragging about full length sizing? I form first then fire but I start by measuring the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

[RC20]

Wow, I never knew how badly my cartridges needed to be greased. If a little bit is good, more is better, they should never have cleaned the cosmoline out of the guns they were issues, just shoot them full of the stuff, what's not to like.

Lubed case were a result of design issues and or lack of ability to create a gun within reasonable tolerances (actually the ammunition as well, its a system, weakest link can and will take any system down)

As my 1920 Springfield 1903 has not blown up yet, though it has an 8 on the TE gage (ie. it was shot a hell of a lot) me thinks they knew what they ere doing

The Maines never turned their in and carried them onto the Canal where they fought in the worst, grimiest and long term bad condition fighting of us forces in WWII (others of course fought equally hard battles, but they were not malaria ridden, 2/3 starved and all the other jungle dieses the grunts on the Canal got let alone combat lasting any where near as long as it did on the canal)

And yet they did not blow up like popcorn. hmmmm

And guns quit blowing up once they got reliable ammo and quite greasing bullets.

Grease and oil are fine within limitation, outside of those they do bizarre things. Wrong oil could and did wreck things (PBY ops off East Africa in WWII when they change the formula just a small amount). Slow turning engine not a bullet going 2600 fps down a bore.

That has to be one of the most insane diatribes I have ever read.

[madsenshooter]

I too have greased the cases on first firing. In my case they were the under dimensioned Norma 6.5 Japanese brass. Without the grease, the cases would show the line of pending head separation on the second firing, even though I neck sized only after the first firing. So the stretch was born on that first firing. I guess I didn't use grease, it was Imperial sizing die wax, and not a heavy coat. I got a lot more than two firings out of the sized to the chamber brass. I had a strange line working its way back on some of my Krag cases once. I'd been shooting a lot of cast Belding and Mull 311169 bullets at 1300-1400fps. Lots of fun shooting at golf balls at 100yds and hitting them pretty regular. But I thought I'd ringed the chamber or something as this line worked its way back on the cases. Turned out to be lube blowing back on the cases and gradually building up in the chamber, working its way back. I suppose it could have built up to the point that the bolt would have been taking all the pressure. Might have done some harm had I put a higher pressure reload in without cleaning the lube out first.

[fguffey]

I too have greased the cases on first firing. In my case they were the under dimensioned Norma 6.5 Japanese brass. Without the grease, the cases would show the line of pending head separation on the second firing, even though I neck sized only after the first firing. .

Usual way to approach a problem; I would say the chamber was the problem because it was generous. And then there is case head separation. If the case head spaced on the shoulder solving the problem would have been to form the cases first and then fire instead of fire forming first. And then there is something no one does but me but it is possible to determine how far the case travels forward before it locks onto the chamber. I have always been the fan of cutting down on all that travel.

F. Guffey

[oldtirediron]

Lubricate the cartridges; and you will probably experience an explosive event !

[bruce]

Hum... never would have thought anyone would still be putting anything on a round like oil/grease/wax. Will confess ... over the years read much by Whelen, Hatcher, Sharp, O'Conner, Carmichael. Most not perhaps directed to benchrest folks, but lots of it applicable to my interests in hunting and shooting at the range. Also have read a good bit of Rifle Magazine articles, and a fair amount of the posts at this site since I joined in 2009. Do not think I have a particular bias. Do however have concerns when it appears axes are being ground. Would like to see measurements if/when produced showing what are the numbers for case head thrust for normal vs. lubricated cases. Likely no problem w/ modern bolt-action rifles. Possibly no problem with other actions. But still would like to see the numbers... as well as chamber pressure, appearance of primers, etc. If lubricating ala old school has merit... fine. But, not willing to fiddle around w/ it simply based on someones unsupported opinions. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

[fguffey]

The warnings above about lubrication interfering with the friction fit of the case to the chamber are valid for rimless rounds.

Since the 303 headspace on rim, I don't think it would matter from a safety standpoint..

I believe lubing your cases is cute, I do not lube my cases, I want nothing between the case and chamber but air; I not want a lot of air and the air that is there must be clean.

And then there is the 303 as in the British 303 rifle. If I had a choice I would choose cases with thick rims; problem, there are no 303 cases with thick rims. Shooters and reloaders have to deal with all that case travel. And then there is that part about the 303 that must be difficult to remember; the 303 British rifles have rear locking lugs. I have no ideal how others deal with rear locking bolts but as for me I have no interest in increasing bolt thrust.

Thicker rims that do not exist: If thicker rims existed the case head separation between the case head and case body would be reduce when the case locked onto the chamber.

F. Guffey

[Merc]

I'm looking for info based on your own experience.

Does anyone lubricate their cartridges before loading and shooting? If yes, what kind of lubricant do you use? Wet, as in petroleum-based, or dry as in wax or silicon-based? What are the advantages and/or disadvantages? Do you lubricate the case and bullet or just the case? Does it help preserve the case or the receiver, or both? Is it necessary or unnecessary?

Merc

Just curious: Part of my rifle cleaning ritual after a trip to the range is thoroughly clean the rifle and apply a film of light gun oil to the bore before storing them in my heated gun safe. Should the gun oil be applied to the walls of the chamber or should they remain dry which raises the possibility surface rust forming?

[bruce]

Does anyone lubricate their cartridges before loading and shooting? If yes, what kind of lubricant do you use? Wet, as in petroleum-based, or dry as in wax or silicon-based? What are the advantages and/or disadvantages? Do you lubricate the case and bullet or just the case? Does it help preserve the case or the receiver, or both? Is it necessary or unnecessary?

Once upon a time there were a few automatic weapons that required lubricated cartridges in order to provide reliable function. The Masden MG and Petersen rifle (U.S. semi-auto service rifle trial) come to mind. No modern action requires or uses such a method to assure reliable function. in a fixed breech weapon, it only serves to increase case head thrust. This is probably not a problem when firing ammunition that meets SAAMI standards in well designed/constructed modern firearms using modern steels. This could be a problem firing hot to nuclear level loads, especially when firing them in a older firearm that is worn or even manufactured using steel/design/construction of lesser quality.

Use of lubricated ammo in a blow back semi-auto is certainly not at all a good idea. It will most certainly increase the speed of function. At a minimum it will with time lead to parts being battered by being over accelerated in the operation cycle.

At one time I did not own a case tumbler. To clean my rifle and pistol brass I polished it with Semichrome polish which left a very clean bright polished case that had a very slick surface. I used such cases in my revolvers with no problems. Back then I fired very mild .38 Special target type loads. Using heavier loads results might have been different. I don't know. I did not in those days load for semi-automatic pistols.

I used these cases polished with Semichrome polish to load ammo for my Remington 03-A3. With the loads I used, appearance of fired primers was normal. With the polished cases, the primers were very much more flattened. Bolt lift was also heavier. I did not fire these rounds in a semi-auto rifle. I have fired a lot of M-1 Garand rifles using common USGI M-2 ball, AP as well as various imported surplus ball ammo. I have always used dry clean ammunition, not polished or waxed. In a properly regulated rifle, ejection is commonly a 1:00-3:00 O'clock from the rifle. With a very dirty rifle or using ammo that is grungy ... ejection can be all the way back at 5:00 O'clock. The cycling parts of the M-1 are large and heavy. I would not want to see such heavy parts operating at a higher than normal speed as it would certainly lead to damage to the tail of the firing pin, interior of the rear of the receiver as well as the smaller parts. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

[dave]

The warnings above about lubrication interfering with the friction fit of the case to the chamber are valid for rimless rounds.

Since the 303 headspace on rim, I don't think it would matter from a safety standpoint. Google bolt thrust for discussions on why it's bad to lube rimless cases.

You still have back pressure no matter the where the headspace is measured, and you depend on case expansion sticking to chamber to control this. If rimmed rifle has good headspace there is no danger. Rimless headspace is measured to the case shoulder. Experiments have been performed where the chamber has been reamed, moving the shoulder forward and all that happens is the cart. flattens the shoulder as the chamber is lengthened. In other words it ' fire forms' the case. That was with a 1917 with the Mauser type extractor which holds the cartridge against the bolt face when it is fired.
But any headspace has tolerances, thousands in. only but it does allow some movement. The only reason to lub cases when firing is to ease extraction. Do Lee's have poor extractors?

[dave]

Just curious: Part of my rifle cleaning ritual after a trip to the range is thoroughly clean the rifle and apply a film of light gun oil to the bore before storing them in my heated gun safe. Should the gun oil be applied to the walls of the chamber or should they remain dry which raises the possibility surface rust forming?

Only for storage, and dry the chamber before shooting. If grease is used wipe bore out too, before shooting.