Sporter 98k: Capture with Documents

[Shooter5]

98k Rifle was sold for $25 by a GI Corporal of the 7772cd Signal Service Company who confiscated it. New owner later sporterized the rifle in Germany in 1949 by Schonland and Shurstein of Walldorf at a time when Germany was in dire economic straights and most firearm mfg was not allowed by the occupying powers. Gunsmith cost was 500 but unknown if USD or DM; the claw mounts alone are expensive even today. New owner stays in Germany until the 1980s and uses it for hunting. Other documents include provost marshall and customs forms, etc. It still hunts although the optics are not modern quality. The original mfg, waffenamts, etc were all scrubbed but new proofs were stamped as well as some minor engraving. The reblue is a light plum-purple color. It has nice balance and lighter weight barrel re-contour. Some neat history not often seen or documented.

[Michaelp]

Nice job and documentation.
$500 bucks was a small fortune in those days and I bet on DMs.

[joem]

A friend and collecter I used to shoot with had a K98 battle field pick up that he got from a widow after her husband died. It had capture papers and a hand written blurb about the area and details of the pick up. He wrote that the rifle was under a dead german and had much blood on it. Nobody else would take so he took it. Washed it off but bluing came off where blood sat on it. Wish I could have bought it but he died suddenly and kids took and sold off everything. What a loss.

[kcw]

The 1st proof house which would proof civilian guns opened (re-opened) in 1951 but they all weren't fully back in business until the mid 50's. Prior to that there simply was nowhere in the western sector of post war Germany to offically proof guns intended for the civilian market. Apparently gunsmiths had access to proof rounds however and did the job themselves, but such testing would not constitute an official proof, but at least the maker knew his product was up to snuff. As a rule, the proof law standards in effect post WWII were almost identical to the 1939 law. RE-proofing was required only if there were certain, specific things done which could effect the integrity of the barrel and/or bolt. It's probably a moot point, but I wonder if, after the 1st proof house opened in 1951 @ Ulm, the maker requested that the owner have it officially proofed; or if there was subsequent work done which required re-proofing after the proof houses were re-opened. Each proof house has it's own unique stamping (ie. Ulm-Oberndorf is a stag antler). While the post 1945 proof law used the same technical standards as the 1939 law, the required stamping designs were changed.

[kcw]

An FYI to people with this type of gun. A friend of mine has a "bring back" sporting 98 (made between the wars as a sporting gun) which has the same claw setup as this gun. Unfortunately the original scope, which apparently was WWI German military surplus from the markings on it, had a cracked lens. The original "rings" in the rifle are of European dimension, but he found an American provider for 1 inch replacements @ a reasonable price. The "claw" sections of the replacement parts needed a bit of fine fitting (filing) but the task was successfully completed and the rifle restored to shooting condition with a standard 1" scope.

[Shooter5]

kCW: thanks, good to know. It sure would be better to have a nice Leupold scope instead. I wish I could afford to install claw mounts on some of my other rifles. Interesting history on proofing; as you can see it has the stag antler proof with the data numbers (16.5.68 8x57IS). What do the numbers translate to? Perhaps the owner did have the proofing/stamp conducted at a later time. I wonder what the exchange rate was for DM to USD in 1949? Perhaps it was more favorable to GIs at that time. I sure would like to know which mfg and date code was originally on the ring. It was replaced with "unbraughbar", wonder what that means?

[kcw]

kCW: thanks, good to know. It sure would be better to have a nice Leupold scope instead. I wish I could afford to install claw mounts on some of my other rifles. Interesting history on proofing; as you can see it has the stag antler proof with the data numbers (16.5.68 8x57IS). What do the numbers translate to? Perhaps the owner did have the proofing/stamp conducted at a later time. I wonder what the exchange rate was for DM to USD in 1949? Perhaps it was more favorable to GIs at that time. I sure would like to know which mfg and date code was originally on the ring. It was replaced with "unbraughbar", wonder what that means?

If you could get a look at the Ulm proofhouse records you would find that your rifle was the 16th piece proofed in May of 1968 The information listed there would include the name of the person or company submitting the piece for testing. Understand that in Germany, and most of Europe, the barrel IS the gun for legal, civilian purposes. In the U.S. it's the receiver. In Germany,
required technical data about civilian guns is stamped on the barrel, often much of it often under the wood. 8x57IS is the same thing as our 8x57JS round as standardized by SAMMI specs. The IS designation is that of the "Commission International Permanente", a 100 year old international organization (all of 14 countries are involved, including Germany) which sets standards for proofing. You're also going to find at least one stag head stamp on the barrel with a letter underneath it (most likely an N but maybe a J also).
From your pics I don't see any steps in the barrel indicating it to be a GI barrel. Sometimes those steps were machined off, but I think it likely that a sporting barrel has been installed, maybe in 1968, which might explain the 1968 proofing.

[kcw]

FYI Shooter5, I now recall that a half dozen or so years ago somebody was offering a set of split filler shims for the purpose of converting the bigger diameter German claw rings to accept a 1" scope. I believe that the price at the time was around $95 which I thought was very reasonable considering the alternatives available. For the life of me however I can't find a source for that product at this time.

[Shooter5]

KCW: thanks for the additional info. Maybe its time to take it apart and check for more stamps. New England Custom is the only source I know of in the States that does claw mount work.

https://www.newenglandcustomgun.com

Also, the gunsmith receipt states a new stock was added and the owner I purchased from stated the barrel was originally military but had been re-contoured/turned down.

[kcw]

Shooter5,
I found the source for the 1" split steel inserts to convert the common 26.5mm German rings to handle a 1" scope. They can be found @ www.accumounts.com, in their K98 scope section. Just $25 shipped! Their idea is to allow the use of a 1" scope with the various WWII K96 sniper scopes, but I can't see why they wouldn't work on your setup, assuming of course that it is in fact 26.5mm.

[Shooter5]

Thanks KCW! I had despaired of finding a reasonable priced alternative so I have just been using the original scope but now perhaps I can put on a Leupold!
And now that you mentioned it, it does seem more likely/logical that a new barrel was installed with the 1968 proofs. I am certain that I didn't have the utter and complete history of a rifle that was in someones possession for nearly 40 years; a lot of could have happened to it beyond the records I have.

[kcw]

Thanks KCW! I had despaired of finding a reasonable priced alternative so I have just been using the original scope but now perhaps I can put on a Leupold!
And now that you mentioned it, it does seem more likely/logical that a new barrel was installed with the 1968 proofs. I am certain that I didn't the utter and complete history of a rifle that was in someones possession for nearly 40 years; a lot of could have happened to it beyond the records I have.

Those adaptor inserts will certainly give you plenty of scope options. I found it interesting that your rifle carries the IS stamping. That's the 1st gun that I've seen which uses that proof standard (in addition to the German requirements), but then again that's the 1st post WWII German Guild/Trade rifle I've seen. That outfit has been around for 100 years, but I've never seen a pre WWII German Guild gun that used that standard. My guess would be that the pre-WWII German proofhouses simply didn't want to bother with it as its usage wasn't required, and more importantly, as it wasn't German, it wasn't worth chit anyway in their opinion.
Something to be aware of if you should run into another sport type 98 in 8x57, is that early guns (ie. just before and after WWI, but maybe later too) may be chambered with the .318 bore, 8x57J round. The problem is that the only way to determine if it's the J or the later SJ (.323) is to have some knowledge of the proof markings used under the Proof Law of 1891, or have the barrel slugged. Under the original requirements of the 1891 law the bore size was stated in terms of "gauge" (lead balls to the pound). A barrel bearing a 156.14 (gauge) stamping under the wood (156.14 lead balls to the pound) = a J bore. A 141.95 stamp = the later .323 (JS) bore.
A few years ago one of my fellow club members showed up at the range with the 98 German sporting rifle that his grandfather had brought home from the war. It had the typical claw type scope mount, plus the common three leaf rear sight. Apparently the gun hadn't been fired until that day and he'd procured some of that high pressure Turk surplus which was available at gun shows for about $4.50 the 70 round bandolier . To say the least, recoil was brutal to the point that the double triggers tore into our fingers! My 1st impression of the gun was, "Who the heck would ever shoot this thing more than once?!" Some time later it dawned on me that the gun may have been chambered for the original 1888 (.318) 8x57J round. Upon examination we found that was in fact the case. We'd been firing high pressure .323 ammo in an unaltered .318 bored gun! It's testimony to the strength of the 98 action that we didn't blow the thing up, or at least screw up the headspace, etc.

[Shooter5]

Well, good info. Let's hope there aren't too many other .318 bores out there! Maybe the proof house but "IS" on barrel because they knew an American owned the rifle and they didn't want him to be confused?

Took apart the rifle and the results are non-spectacular: A more experienced eye can likely see where and if markings were ground off but it does appear there were 3 places on the receiver that had something ground.

Barrel: 16. 5. 68 and stag antler proof 8x57 IS 4384 serial number. Near the barrel attachment to the receiver: Top - 3 tiny marks: a symbol, possibly a 'T' G and symbol, possibly a '4'. Bottom: symbol 0,2 Bottom of barrel under rear sight: WAFFEN (or WARREN?) BOCK FRANKFURTH (or FRANKFURIH) each word below the other in column. There is small half centimeter slot milled on the underside of the barrel near the point where the front sling mount would be in the stock.

Receiver: 16.5.68 stag antler 4384 Large "A" (appears more like an oversized small case letter 'a') "unbraughbar" stamped twice

Bolt release lever: 82

Trigger: 03 and Two definite waffenamts [Eagle with 3 line wings, no swastika in talons] with number "23" below one and "25" below the other (the '5' might be another number).

I might try and look up the Gunsmith shop in Walldorf Germany and see if its still in business.

[kcw]

Waffen Bock Frankfurth. A gun related sporting goods outfit located on Berlin St in Frankfurt, Germany founded in 1887. They have a website. No doubt its services were pressed into use by the German government during periods of war (contracts for parts ect), not unlike U.S. companies. The stamping on your barrel however indicates civilian production, almost certainly post WWII. The outfit that rebarreled your gun bought the barrel from Waffen Bock Frankfurth, or its distributor.
Understand too that German civilian proof marks & military proof marks are two different things. Also, Nazi era arms production almost always used codes to indicate the source of manufacture. After all, the U.S. 8th Air Force had access to German road maps and telephone books. Not much point in allowing the name of a part supplier on a part that's going to be incorporated into a piece of armament.
I'm guessing that those eagle stamps with "three line wings" are practical mechanical adaptation of the post WWII eagle which is suppose to have six "feathers" hanging off each wing. I can see where making a stamp with six fine feathers would be a pain and subject to breakage. The post war eagles I'm looking at also have legs which look like an upside down, lower case letter "t" and a "tail" which looks more like a pedestal that the eagle might "sit" upon. Obviously it was redesigned to differentiate from the Nazi era eagle under the 1939 proof law, which was VERY much like the Nazi era military mark.

[da gimp]

Aw heck........... I can't get the dern photos to open in your private message & the ones at the top of the thread are closed too............ My chemo treatments have been kicking my butt............ & this is the first I've been on line in better than 2 weeks I think...... Please post them again here opened...... I'm too dam computer illiterate to know how to cut & paste them to open them & the grandkids have already left today. Am really looking forward to seeing them sir/shooter.