Battle of the Little Big Horn...................

[JBinIll]

Funny, the army had no trouble hauling mountain howitzers around on broken ground. Even ONE gatling gun could have made the difference.

There was a large difference in the carriages and deployment of the M1841 Mountain Howitzer and the Gatling gun.The Mountain Howitzer had small diameter wheels and a wider track width than the Gatling.It used a redesigned Prairie Carriage for transport by pack animal or pulled by a single animal using shafts attached to the gun.They still upset crossing rough ground while being pulled as evidenced by field reports one being at Big Hole,Montana in 1877.

The Gatling carriage at the time was similiar to full size artillery carriages towed by a limber.Period pictures show the wheels as being as high as a mans shoulders.Tactical deployment at the time was similiar to deployment of field pieces.

One Gatling gun would have had little if any effect in my opinion.Custer split his command up and when attacked dismounted and fought on foot against a mobile mounted enemy over broken ground where it wouldn't have been hard to avoid or overun a gun in a fixed location or caught in the process of limbering up to move.There was no "last stand" like those heroic Budweiser advertising pictures you used to see in the taverns.Archeological forensic evidence from the shell casings found on the battlefield shows Custer's men were running for their lives and were for the most part run down in detail and killed by a mounted enemy while afoot after dismounting to fight.Add to that he was outnumbered about three to one with half the attackers armed with firearms and half that number thought or shown to be armed with repeating rifles of one sort or another and his goose was cooked from the outset mostly due to his ego and glory hunting.

[John Sukey]

Reinforces my statement that Custer had a very high opinion of himself. If he had only waited for Terry, but no he wanted all the glory, "Them injuns always ran away before" Only this time he wasn't facing Black Kettle, so he IGNORED the information from his scouts.

[Bill D]

No doubt about it, Custer was a bold Indian fighter. But then Custer had been a bold Confederate fighter also. In Mr. Lincoln's army, cautious generals didn't last long.
Yes, Custer's experience on the plains was that the Indian would probably rather flee than stand to anything other than overwelming odds in his favor. Custer's experience was gained, not only at Wa$hita but in other skirmishes with the Cheyenne and Sioux and as a matter of fact, was correct - Indian tactics dictated that flight was much preferable. Especially if the family was involved.
Custer had no knowledge of a couple of very important facts. First, of course, was the whipping that was dealt to Crook's southern column at the Rosebud a few days earlier, and second was a lack of intel as to the whereabouts of Terry's column. Custer felt, in the absence of information, that he had to strike to keep the tribes from again fleeing. His largest mistake was in dividing his command into three parts prior to attacking the village. With Reno attacking the lower end of the village, the initial inclination of the Indians was to flee. In fact, their ferocious attack on Reno was for the purpose of getting their women and children time to escape. Custer's attack on the upper end of the villiage blocked this from happening and forced the combined tribes to fight.
It wasn't just Black Kettle who might have chosen to flee, the Indians camped on the Greasy Grass River would also have run if Custer hadn't forced them to stop and fight.

[Bill D]

Funny, the army had no trouble hauling mountain howitzers around on broken ground. Even ONE gatling gun could have made the difference.
But then, Custer had a high opinion of himself. For that matter, he should not even have been there as he was still under sentence of Court martial for abandoning several men in his hurry to "get home to Libby"

And where would Custer have deployed his one Gatling? At the lower end of the vilage where Reno was barely able to get his butt accross the river and up the bluff to Reno's Hill. If you've ever been on the ground there, you would see it was not a good place to set up a Gatling - especially in the face of a whole damned bunch of very angry Indians. Reno is very lucky to have saved as much of his command as he did.
If Custer had taken his Gatling along with his command, he would have found himself trying to deploy it in the middle of the river where he first met resistance. There was no time to deploy it until he reached his final stand and by that time his command was so scattered and disorganized as to have made no difference.

By the way, Custer was at the Big Horn, not because of leaving troops to go home to Libby (That was an entirely different time and in Kansas). He was returning from Washington where he had foolishly gone to testify against the President's brother in a post sutler controversy. President Grant was a whole bunch pissed at Custer.

[Bill D]

Bob -

Thanks for posting the letters and etc. by your relative that was a member of the 7th at the Big Horn engagement. If I might add a few points, the frontier cavalryman was an interesting specimen. He was one of the most neglected fighters in our entire existence. As late as the 1876 date of the Custer debacle, frontier troops were still being issued Civil War surplus clothing, tack, and even rations. All of which had been furnished by wartime profiteers bent on screwing Uncle Sam at every turn. The uniforms were cut too small, much of the tack was substandard and the food was either spoiled or infested with weavels or maggots.
At the time of your relative's photo, he would have been issued a dress uniform with helmet. He would also have been issued garrison uniforms, stable clothes and for campaign, he wore his old and worn out clothing, sutler purchased hats and whatever else he could scrounge that was useful. Custers army on campaign looked more like a group of mounted bums than a fighting force. The only thing that he took a lot of pride in and cared for very well was his horse. If his horse developed a problem that would keep him from being ridden, the poor trooper walked and cavalry boots were not made for walking.
A good book to read on this subject is one by Don Rickey entitled "Forty Miles A Day On Beans and Hay". I guarantee it will give you a whole new respect for our frontier army.

[Rick]

I've been to the Little Big Horn and reading Bills post was like a little vacation back to there for me.

One point of interest for me was standing on the spot where Custer's scouts first saw the encampment. A tractor was working the ground where the village was located so it helped put things into scale for me. The Scouts told Custer the number encamped there and if the turned and ran possibly they could save there lives. Custer sent for a pair of quality binoculars belonging to another officer and looked the situation over. With the glasses he couldn't see the encampment but the Indian Scouts said you could tell because the ground moved like it was covered with worms. Custer advanced and the Indian Scouts deserted.

This information was given by the Park Ranger giving us the tour. Anyway, this is how I remember it so if I'm wrong correct me.

[John Sukey]

Bill D. the point is that Custer had NOT served his full sentence for the episode in Kansas so he should NOT have been in command at the time.

[Rick]

Just remembered. The Ranger thought he wanted to be nominated to run for President. So if he had killed the Indians he would of been on a fast horse to get to the convection with some war stories. In short he wanted to be a hero. What is the old story? If you want to make God laugh make a plan.

The charges in Kansas were mentioned and strings were pulled to give Custer a second chance. Can't remember who gave him the break.

[Bill D]

Just remembered. The Ranger thought he wanted to be nominated to run for President. So if he had killed the Indians he would of been on a fast horse to get to the convection with some war stories. In short he wanted to be a hero. What is the old story? If you want to make God laugh make a plan.

The charges in Kansas were mentioned and strings were pulled to give Custer a second chance. Can't remember who gave him the break.

If I recall correctly, it was General Sheridan who got him reinstated. He did not serve the entire "time in exile" but by the time of the Big Horn fight he was no longer facing any charges.

I'm not defending Custer. He had his faults but he gets a bum rap on some of the things at the Little Big Horn. Actually, I have a friend who is at Dull Knife College who has done a series of "ledger book" drawings over a copy of the first newspaper account of the "massacre". The friend is a full blood Northern Cheyenne and his account (as drawn) was gleaned from a number of Cheyenne first person accounts of the battle. They tell a completely different story than the one generally recognized by the whites.
Do you suppose there could be two sides to this story?

[Weasel]

It always seemed that Sheridan had his eye on a different prize. Libbie. All Libbie had to do was ask Sheridan for something and he would melt like butter. Custer was being court marital for leaving his command in the field to be with Libbie. Sheridan gave the surrender desk from Appomattox to her. Why??????????
There probably wasn't nothing there but it would make a good soap box.

[Bill D]

Bill D. the point is that Custer had NOT served his full sentence for the episode in Kansas so he should NOT have been in command at the time.

Custer NEVER commanded the 7th. He was the Lieutanent Colonel. The Seventh was always commanded by Colonel Samuel D. Sturgis throughout the entire Custer period. That aside, General Sheridan, Custer's patron saint, intervened with the powers that be to have Custer fully reinstatedd "for the good of the Army" well prior to the Big Horn debacle.

[Sunray]

"...attacking the village..." More like a small city. Estimated to be 10 to 15,000 men, women and children. The accounts I've read of the battle said the encampment was the biggest ever seen. Custer is rumoured to be out numbered 10 to 1. Supposedly, roughly 2500 + warriors(six tribes) against Custer's split command of 650 or so. Four Gatlings wouldn't have helped much. They also said most of the Indians didn't fight mounted.
"...Custer NEVER commanded the 7th..." For sure. He did command Terry's cavalry though.

[Dan In Indiana]

Several years ago, I was at the battle field, and while going through the Visitors Center, I was looking over a mock up of the battle [had all those little lights on it] and got into a conversation with one of the Park employees in uniform who just happened to be an Indian. We talked for a few minutes when he asked me if I knew much about Custer, and I replied only what I had read on numerous accounts on the Internet, and it was my honest, personal opinion that Old Blondie was a self centered, self serving, egotistical, power hungry SOB and he got what he deserved. That Indian just started chuckling with a big smile on his face and never said a word.

[pelago]

thank, you so much for sharing this

[John Sukey]

I agree with the opinion on Custer. It's just too bad that he dragged his troops with him into that mess.
Oh by the way the only people who had cavalry sabres on the day were the indians from the previous engagement.
Note; when the army won, it was a victory, when the Indians won, it was a massacre.
Custer was noted for his high casualty rate in the Civil war at a time when high casualty rates were the norm.