Battle of the Little Big Horn...................

[dave]

He probably would have left them with the supply column witch, never caught up before his death. He was only interested in speed, afraid the Indians would get away.

[wsfbernie]

Just a thought, anybody out there remember the old Twilight Zone concerning Little Big Horn? Rod Serling imagined a tank with all
pertinent ammo and crew being transported through time to the battlefield. Ahhhhhhhhhh, the sixties...........

[Dan Shapiro]

Yeah, but when they arrived on the battle scene, they left the tank on a ridge and walked towards the battlefield, and suddenly their uniforms and weapons turned into those of that time period.

[Shooter5]

Not all of the Custer scouts left, a small number stayed. Of more importance than the Gatlings was the decision to split up the unit. One wonders if they had stayed together.

[dave]

spelling, etc.

The spelling, capitalization and punctuation in the original letter is atrocious.

I assume you 'cleaned' it up? You should have left it as written. If you read allot of letters from that time they are all that way. You have to remember the average person who went to school may have had 6-8 years. 8 would have been allot. They learned to spell by phonics (remember that?) and while words were mis-spelled you know what the word is. Too bad the average hi-schooler to-day can't do as good!

[Dan Shapiro]

"Too bad the average hi-schooler to-day can't do as good!"

From what I've read recently, many can't even write, much less read cursive. I can only imagine what you'd get if you took word processors away from them!

[Art]

They haven't taught cursive in years, too time consuming.

On the subject at hand though. Years ago I read an intriguing article that I have since, as usual lost, that I found fascinating.

As all of you know "Custer era" U.S. martial arms bring a premium. The article was written by a man who had come into an M1873 "trap door" carbine. He learned that the park service was in the process of analizing the tool marks on the case heads of cartridges recovered from the little big horn battle ground to determine the positions of the troops at various times. Computerization alone made this process one that was not so onerous that it would never have been attempted normally.

On a whim the author sent a spent case from his trap door to the park service and......are you ready for this.....got a match. The rifle had indeed been fired on the Little Bighorn Battleground. Yes indeedie some of the old cartridges recovered there matched. Now THAT is a valuable old rifle.

[Vern Humphrey]

Please Mr. Custer, I don't wanna go

Wonder what would have happened if Custer had not turned down those four gatling guns he was offered?

He'd be alive today -- down in some valley in the Little Wolf Mountains, cursing and swearing and trying to get those *&^%$ guns up the other side.

The Gatlings were heavy -- think of a field piece, not a modern machine gun. They were pulled by condemned cavalry horses, and were in caliber .50-70. The latter means they didn't have the prime characteristic of modern machine guns, long grazing range.

I've had this discussion a time or two, and I alway ask the proponents of the Gatling guns to assign them a mission -- and have yet to find a supporter of Gatling guns who knows how to assign them a mission

[El Paso Mark]

Yeah, but when they arrived on the battle scene, they left the tank on a ridge and walked towards the battlefield, and suddenly their uniforms and weapons turned into those of that time period.

I remember that one. At the end of the episode they showed a grave or monument with the crew's names on it.

Cheers,

Mark

[Art]

"Too bad the average hi-schooler to-day can't do as good!"

From what I've read recently, many can't even write, much less read cursive. I can only imagine what you'd get if you took word processors away from them!

My mother was educated in a 19th century school system. It was in the early to mid 1920s but the school had two rooms, grades 1-4 on one sied and 4-8 on the other. No electricity, no running water, chickens running around the school yard. The teacher's salary was so pitiful that he had to live with the parents of some of the children, in this case my grandparents. If you think not a lot of learning went on in this environment you're absolutely right. I have read a lot of 19th century letters related to my family. The style and grammer goes from excellent in about half the cases to absolutely atrocious in the other half. This of course only relates to the about 70% of them who could actually read and write and my mom's family came from the southern planter class so we aren't talking about poor folks.

8th grade was as far as anyone was expected to go and all the skills needed were the ability to read and write (after a fashion if youre parents weren't taking care of that at home) and to do simple arithmetic. One of the reasons my grandfather wanted to get out of the cattle business was that had he stayed in his children would not have been able to go to high school, the nearest one being 25 miles away.

According to my mom nothing is more overrated than 19th century education. A large part of the population was functionally or totally illterate. Children like her who were well educated were given a big head start at home before they ever started school.

[High Plaines Doug r]

He'd be alive today -- down in some valley in the Little Wolf Mountains, cursing and swearing and trying to get those *&^%$ guns up the other side.

The Gatlings were heavy -- think of a field piece, not a modern machine gun. They were pulled by condemned cavalry horses, and were in caliber .50-70. The latter means they didn't have the prime characteristic of modern machine guns, long grazing range.

I've had this discussion a time or two, and I alway ask the proponents of the Gatling guns to assign them a mission -- and have yet to find a supporter of Gatling guns who knows how to assign them a mission

Mr Humphrey,
Assuming the guns would have been left behind with Benteen's pack train and brought up only after Reno has retreated to his little redoubt, may they have possibly been effective at better protecting that group of survivors? In particular; Weir's tiny rescue party and the later attempts to procure water from the stream below.
Given that they (some of them) survived in any case, so it could be said that the point is moot, and I agree that the outcome of the fight is probably not in question on this point.
If bringing the guns had slowed Custer's advance by say; 12 hours, would the outcome of the battle have been significantly changed?
Would Reno and Benteen been more agressive in attemping to relieve Custer? Would the Sioux have been intimidated by automatic fire coming from the hilltop as Terry had probably imagined?
Quen sabe?
Doug r

[John Sukey]

Bob, just looked at your post again. Actualy there were three uniforms. Dress for parades and guard mount, five button blouses and kepi's for garrison and field uniforms which ususlly consisted of shirts, pants, and the wide brimmed hat that hollywierd thinks was worn all the time. If crossed sabres were worn on field hats, they would have been on the side not the front. Shiney brass attacted bullets
In the majority of the campaigns the hats were BLACK, not the tan ones that were used at the end of the indian wars. Neck scarves were whatever color the post sutler had on hand, NOT necessarily yellow. Yellow suspenders are also a myth as pants were fitted to stay up, and while suspenders did make a late apperance they were NOT yellow.

There is even a pic of Custer and his staff wearing pillbox hats with their dress uniforms in the British manner. Plumed and spiked halmets came into use in 1870 after the french lost to the Germans. Before that, our uniforms had a distinctly french look.

[Bill D]

John, the field uniforms were not standardized. They consisted of garrison uniforms that were too badly worn to be kept for garrison plus anything which was useful. Hats were largely left to the discretion of the individual with some soldiers opting for the kepi, some preferring a brim hat which was more or less wide as the individual preferred, colors were mostly dark but again could vary ,and on the Little Big Horn campaign, large numbers of officers and men had purchased straw hats. An Indian Wars cavalry unit, in particular, was apt to be hardly recognizable as a military unit due to individualism.

There was a further uniform for cavalry - the stable uniform. This consisted of a white canvas trousers and blouse and was worn during stable duties.

[John Sukey]

The stable uniform was TAN canvas. During the Spanish Campaign, there was a shortage of the blue uniforms. Therefore the Rough Riders were outfitted in stable dress which proved to be much more suited to the climate than the wool uniforms. There are pics of Teddy wearing that.

And yes, straw hats were also worn in the field. Lets not forget the early "Witch hat" which had a wider brim than the later ones and the sides could be hooked to the crown. The main problem with that version was the quality of the material. If you were caught in a heavy rain, it disintegrated, and you would up wearing the brim like a collar and the crown like a skull cap.

Now One wonders what would have happened if the 7th had still been equipped with the Spencer Carbine which was replaced shortly before the campaign with the trapdoor. OR what would have happened if Custer had waited for Terry's infantry instead of pressing ahead.
A point; Custer was known for his high casualty rates in the Civil War where casualty rates were normaly high. You have to lose a lot more soldiers than anyone else for that to be commented on.

[JBinIll]

Now One wonders what would have happened if the 7th had still been equipped with the Spencer Carbine which was replaced shortly before the campaign with the trapdoor.

I believe they would have made some difference,certainly more than the left behind Gatlings that are always talked about.But with the Indians outnumbering Custer by 3 to 1 or more and fighting dismounted one wonders if it would have altered the outcome significantly or only in the number of survivors?