Are Remington 1889s safe to shoot?

[LARscout]

To my understanding these were made in 7 grades (listed below). The shotgun in my possession does not have a Damascus barrel (due to the absence of scroll type engraving). I also doubt its a fine twist barrel because of the smoothness of the barrels. I was advised to first go with low brass handloads (birdshot only). I was hoping to hear some info here about the effect that the modern shock absorbing wads have on chamber pressure and if I should go with felt wads (which leak gas a bit more). If period appropriate wads are preferred in this case.
That being said, does anyone have an experience operating this old SxS hammergun?



(Remington website)
Grade 1 – Decarbonized steel barrels
Grade 2 – Fine twist barrels
Grade 3 – Damascus steel barrels, engraving
Grade 4 – Damascus steel barrels, better quality engraving, curly walnut stock
Grade 5 – Damascus steel barrels, extra engraving, selected curly walnut stock
Grade 6 – Extra fine quality Damascus steel barrels, scroll engraving, fine selected curly walnut stock
Grade 7 – Superior quality Damascus steel barrels, extra fine scroll engraving, elegant curly walnut stock

[kcw]

I has similar questions about my great grandfather's Belgian 12 gauge SxS hammergun . circa 1890. What I learned was that the American standard length for the 12 gauge BP shot shell was 2 & 5/8". Guns from Europe, meant for export to the U.S., would commonly be chambered for that length. In my case the gun is stamped "Royal Damascus" which is actually a fluid steel barrel. Fluid steel barrels were cheaper to make than Damascus and looked down upon by shot gun purists of the time. The typical, utilitarian "farmer's gun" of the era is commonly going to have the steel barrels for reasons related to simple economics. As it turns out however, for those of us wanting to shoot those old guns today, the fluid steel barrels don't have nearly the dangerous internal rust issues that old Damascus barrels are noted for.
Assuming that your 1889 was chambered for the 2&5/8" round, and remains so, it should be noted that there was no "throat" in such chambers. The front end of the chamber was cut at 90 degrees. When the thick hulled paper casing of the era opened to the approximate end of the 2&5/8" chamber, the thickness of the paper filled the blunt end of the 90 degree cut. That allowed for a smooth transition of the wadding in the round as it passed from the shell and into the barrel. The use of current 2&3/4" cases poses two problems. First is that the longer hull is obviously going to jam into the mouth of the 90 degree, 2&5/8" chamber upon firing. Also the much thinner plastic hulls of today are made for wads which are of larger diameter than the wadding of the black powder era. The result is that the front end of the plastic wad will jam into the 90 degree end of the short 2&5/8" BP chamber, which is already being interfered with by the end of the 2&3/4" modern casing. Obviously all of that raises pressure issues. People do get away with such practice, a testament to the strength of the guns, but certainly NOT something advisable.
In the case of my family's Belgian gun, my father often told of being with his grandfather in the late 30's during their visit to the local gun shop when the proprietor told his grandfather that BP rounds weren't available any longer, and that he should use "low brass" smokeless" rounds instead, which his grandfather did for years while pheasant & rabbit . Flash forward to around 2005, when the Belgian gun was passed down to me. In looking it over carefully I noted the common staining inside the barrel that is associated with BP guns. What peeked my interest however was a ring of bright steel at the front end of each chamber, visible as I looked down the barrel from the chamber end. "What the heck is that all about?", I wondered. Why would there be bright steel there, while everything else inside the barrel is stained? What I discovered upon further investigation is something that my father apparently never knew about, his grandfather had the chambers opened to the then standard 2&3/4" specs. , including forcing cones. It looks like the work was done with hand reamers as there is some "chatter" visible on the forcing cone surfaces. My homemade 12 bore chamber gauge shows the chambers lengthened to 2&3/4", + or - a 1/32nd between the two chambers.
My research at the time showed that there could be issues in using smokeless rounds in the "light barreled" English style BP shotguns with fluid barrels. The issue not being related to the chamber but to the extremely thin walled barrels that can't stand the higher " down the barrel" pressures common to smokeless powder. I did find a British web page on the matter which talked of barrels made both of the "common" & "special" steel. Specs as to minimum barrel wall thickness's required for each type of steel were discussed when such guns were to be used with smokeless powder. I found that my tight Belgian gun had barrel thickness's well in excess of those minimum standards and so I have no issue in using one ounce, three dram equivalent, modern factory 2&3/4" rounds in the chamber modified old Belgian SxS gun, just as my great grandfather & uncles did. FYI- the 3 dram equivalent smokeless charge amounts to what we today might call a "high brass" charge in BP terms.
I would suggest that you 1st determine just what the situation is with Remington's chamber dimension , and take it from there. However, a MUCH simpler course of action might be to simply order up a few boxes of the lower pressure smokeless rounds now being made specifically for those old guns, such as the 2.5", 2&1/4 dram EQ. "Vintager" line made by Polywad Inc. They are sort of expensive compared to current "off the shelf" modern production, but it does save a bunch of time & fuss, not mention the worry related to safety issues if all you want to do is to fire up the old gun just for old time sake once in a while.

[Tuna]

Absence of scrolling to tell if your barrel in steel? One can look at a barrel and tell if it's Damascus or not. If looking at a barrel and one can't tell then it should be treated as Damascus. They are BP shotguns and never designed for smokeless powders. and as kcw stated the chambers are different and must be checked before even thinking of shooting it. Now I have seen what happens to a wall hanger when fired with trap loads and it's not pretty so please be very careful.

[LARscout]

Very interesting kcw, thanks for sharing.
Is there any load data on the Vintager shells? Are they using a particular powder?
I may try BP charged birdshot shells but I'm a bit worried about melting the plastic hulls and reducing their reload-ability.

[Tuna]

I would suggest that if your going to shoot it with BP, that you use a fiber wads and not the plastic cups for modern cases and shot. This will reduce pressure and it will also help clean the barrel with each shot you fire.

[LARscout]

Will do, thanks.

[PhillipM]

I would suggest that if your going to shoot it with BP, that you use a fiber wads and not the plastic cups for modern cases and shot. This will reduce pressure and it will also help clean the barrel with each shot you fire.

++++1000!

I saw a breach blown off a cowboy action side by side because the owner made black powder reloads using a modern wad. Emri had to explain it to me but basically a modern wad is the same thing as not tamping a ball down all the way, leaving an air gap that will kaboom the gun.

[LARscout]

Are felt wads different in that regard?

[kcw]

LARscout, have you checked out the article, "Black powder shotgun shells" @ www.tbullock.com/bpsg? There's a good discussion about paper v. plastic hulls for bp use there. They seem to suggest using cut down paper hulls with fiber wadding. They suggest scrounging for vintage wadding or buying new from specialty suppliers. As with any commercial loader, Polywad doesn't freely divulge proprietory loading info beyond stating that their 12 gauge load is 7/8oz @ 2 & 1/4 dram EQ., smokeless of course. That's a light charge in the 12 gauge BP world, and Polywad notes that it probably won't cycle autoloaders. Paper hulls were originally designed for BP use. There's not much "give" to the old fiber wads (unlike the modern plastic "power piston") You don't get the dangerous "loose charge effect" noted by Phillip14 when fiber wading is used with BP. The above mentioned article covers that concern.

[LARscout]

I have actually seen it before, just glanced over it for a reference on drams. But I'm now a bit more interested in this blackpowder approach. It may stink up my barrel but I like the light recoil, low noise and low risk behind it.
I think I'll just cut the crimp off a plastic shell and glue on an over-shot card on top as the website suggested. May invest in a roll crimper.
I have felt wads on hand, I'll just use them.

[LARscout]

For anyone still wondering. All loads performed well, though I am leaning towards the modern smokeless load. I worked up the smokeless charge from 15 to 19grs of universal Clays. I feel no qualms about using factory loaded birdshot anymore. The BP load left a lot to be desired in the velocity department, considering I had to double my hold off on a falling clay. At a minimum of 2 dram per charge, it quickly guzzles a pound of 2f. These old hammerguns are a real hoot to shoot.

[kcw]

For anyone still wondering. All loads performed well, though I am leaning towards the modern smokeless load. I worked up the smokeless charge from 15 to 19grs of universal Clays. I feel no qualms about using factory loaded birdshot anymore. The BP load left a lot to be desired in the velocity department, considering I had to double my hold off on a falling clay. At a minimum of 2 dram per charge, it quickly guzzles a pound of 2f. These old hammerguns are a real hoot to shoot.

Good to hear you've got it running. In you post of 12-22 you talked about trimming the crimp off a plastic hull. That was because you'd determined the gun to have the old 2&5/8" chamber? You now talk of using factory loaded ammo. Do you mean modern 2&3/4" or something like the shorter Polywad offerings? I just had my great grandfather's old Belgian SxS (which I posted about earlier) out last weekend to let my cousin's two grandsons shoot up a box of the factory Polywad ammo in what is their 3X great grandfather's gun. They also then shot up a box modern 1 ounce, three dram Eqv. stuff. which is substantially stiffer than downloaded 2.5" Polywad loads of course. They liked the Polywad better.