Winchester m12 trench on gun broker

[BOB IN AZ]

Can some of the advance SG collectors comment on the above auction on Gun Broker #557741776
thanks
BOB

[Big Larry]

Do you see the punch mark next to the oval proof? Gun has been reworked by Winchester. The finish has been applied after proofing. A sure sign some has worked on this gun. Big Larry

[SPEEDGUNNER]

The finish appears characteristic of the light parkerizing seen on the late war Model 12's. What concerns me is that the thumbprint is evident, but partially obscured. What happened there on the right side of the receiver? Reworked by Winchester is not a deal killer, otherwise it looks like a decent trench. It will be interesting to see where the bids go...

[Keydet92]

Hello,
I'm not a Winchester collector just trying to learn more. Is it common for the U.S. marking to be out of alignment like this example? All the others I've seen have been much more uniform.

Slide1.JPG

[scosgt]

Hello,
I'm not a Winchester collector just trying to learn more. Is it common for the U.S. marking to be out of alignment like this example? All the others I've seen have been much more uniform.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]35769[/ATTACH]

That is an absolutely correct factory parkerized gun. Larry, I am surprised you did not catch that but we are both getting old.
It is NOT a re-work, in spite of the punch mark.
I can not explain why the markings look off, but the gun is right as rain.
It is a $3500-$5k gun. It would be way more but it does seem to have some wear issues.

[scosgt]

FYI those guns are always found with some blued small parts - the sling swivel in the stock, the action bar, the trigger and safety are most common.

That was because after Winchester got permission from Uncle to cheapen the finish those parts are common to all M12 shotguns and they had so many of them on hand they did not need to make any more in the new finish.

[scosgt]

The finish appears characteristic of the light parkerizing seen on the late war Model 12's. What concerns me is that the thumbprint is evident, but partially obscured. What happened there on the right side of the receiver? Reworked by Winchester is not a deal killer, otherwise it looks like a decent trench. It will be interesting to see where the bids go...

On the original parked guns the fingerprint is evident. Re-parking removes it forever, that is one of the ways you can tell it is original.
Again, can not explain the apparent mis alignment of the markings, but it is very late and close to the end, the tools and jigs were probably getting worn out.

[Keydet92]

Something else didn't look right on the U.S. markings that kept bothering me. The "S" stamp used is not symmetrical it has a definite top and bottom and the one on the parkerized gun in question (on the left) is upside down. The periods also appear to have been made with a punch. Did Winchester hand stamp these markings or did they use a roll stamp?
Slide1~0.JPG

Something about the ordnance bomb also doesn't look right but it's hard to tell with the scratch on it. Compare the flame pattern between the two bombs.

[scosgt]

Something else didn't look right on the U.S. markings that kept bothering me. The "S" stamp used is not symmetrical it has a definite top and bottom and the one on the parkerized gun in question (on the left) is upside down. The periods also appear to have been made with a punch. Did Winchester hand stamp these markings or did they use a roll stamp?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]35791[/ATTACH]


Something about the ordnance bomb also doesn't look right but it's hard to tell with the scratch on it. Compare the flame pattern between the two bombs.

You are absolutely correct. However looking at the serial number and the metal finish UNDER the parkerizing there is only one thing it can be. The factory parked guns had no final finishing and polishing so you can see the machine marks and "jittering". These are the ONLY Winchester guns EVER like this. There is no mistaking it. So the gun is what it is. As I stated before, I have no explanation for the funky looking markings, however this gun can simply not be faked.

[scosgt]

It does not even look like the correct bomb, so yes the markings are strange. But the overall manufacture and serial number of the gun indicate it is not fake. Re-parked guns are smooth, because they were polished out like commercial guns when made. This gun is "unfinished", they never polished out the machining marks.

[Big Larry]

It does not even look like the correct bomb, so yes the markings are strange. But the overall manufacture and serial number of the gun indicate it is not fake. Re-parked guns are smooth, because they were polished out like commercial guns when made. This gun is "unfinished", they never polished out the machining marks.

It does appear that the proofs are parked over too. I had one years ago and the proofs were very shiny. I still maintain the point of the punch mark. This gun has been back to Winchester for whatever. Big Larry

[Keydet92]

I do not deny that this shotgun is what it is portrayed to be. As I said Winchesters are not my line of collecting. I'm only offering observations on something that looks very different from the standard. I did some searching on ordnance bomb styles and found one that is close to the example (from an Oneida Limited bayonet) for comparison. See attached, parkerized gun in upper left, the two vertical flames on the right and the fat flame second from the left stand out.
Slide1.jpg

[scosgt]

I am confounded by the markings too, because the gun is absolutely NOT fake.

[scosgt]

It does appear that the proofs are parked over too. I had one years ago and the proofs were very shiny. I still maintain the point of the punch mark. This gun has been back to Winchester for whatever. Big Larry

Larry
That punch mark on a WWI 97 with WWII features is taken to mean a factory refurbish. Those guns are always blued. I know what you are referring to with the punch mark, but I don't think that is what it means in this case. In fact, I don't know of any re-parking by Winchester, but maybe you have some reference to this. And in any case, it is not refinished, unless the receiver was also re-hardened, because the thumb print indicates hardened areas, and any re-do of the finish destroys that.

[Keydet92]

Another theory. I have a Model 12 riot gun from the same period (1037014) that doesn't have US martial markings. Could this trench gun have been extra production that was never marked and accepted by the War Dept? Then at some later date an enterprising collector doctored it with US markings and possibly added the heat shield as it looks to have a lot less wear than the shotgun it's on.