Still having head position/cheek-weld issues w/ Garand....

[mdoerner]

Hi All,

I've gotten a bit better since my last posting, but I've still got rear-sight picture issues w/ my positioning. After looking at the 1942 training film/video, I no longer keep my head to the rear of the stock, where it is more comfortable, but just forward of the comb near the mid-point of the pistol grip. I shot 83-0, 84-0, 85-0 on the 1st 3 legs of of the National Match Course at Youngstown club I go to for CMP matches, which is VERY consistent for me. I did have vertical stringing on those targets, but breathing and trigger control are "next" on my list of things to focus on. I could have done much better on the last leg, and I need your help to figure out where I need to keep my noggin on the stock.

I shot the 20 round final leg in 3-shot groups before I would lean over to the left and check my shooting with my scope. I noticed I was going up and to the left, so I adjusted my sights once, then again, and finally a 3rd time before I thought maybe something was wrong with the gun. One of the locals was coaching a youngster and so I asked him what was wrong and he instantly said "head position behind the rear sight was changed". Here's the target in question....



....as you can see, some very nice 3-shot groups, unfortunately nowhere near the freakin' X

So I keep my head back and relaxed, and that's no good. I'm stretching my head now to get it closer to the rear sight, but evidently, that's no good. The only other thing I can think of is to position my head at the top of the comb of the stock, before the pistol grip. I'm about 6'-0" and 180 lbs, kinda lanky, but not so much anymore...

Your constructive criticism is appreciated. That flier on the upper left corner was one of my last 2 shots for that leg, and it kept me from going past 400 (I got 395-0 today total). I'm trying to break 400, honest, but this head position/cheek-weld thing is really throwing me for a loop. Thanks.

Mike D

[mdoerner]

Also, I am using the 6 O'clock hold for these targets. Is there any advantage to using the center hold? Or Navy hold?

Finally, Would a NM rear aperture help? Or would I just be spending more money and not be solving this problem? Thanks.

Mike D

[Maury Krupp]

That target looks a lot like you're trying to "drive" the rifle. Trying to *force it* to shoot where you want it to instead of letting your position and natural point of aim *let it* shoot where it's going to naturally. That doesn't work; the rifle always wins.

When it comes to positions, everybody's body is different. You need to find what works for your body.

That said, no position should include any straining. Straining means you're using your muscles and that's something you don't want to do. Not only do you get tired but it's impossible to strain the exact same amount the exact same way for every shot. And if nothing else highpower is about being almost obsessive-compulsive about shot-to-shot consistency.

You want your positions to be as relaxed as possible. That way you can repeat them consistently. You may need to stretch or push a bit to get into position, especially at first, but once you're in you should be relaxed with very little to, if possible, no muscle tension.

Another key to a repeatable position are "landmarks." Having specific places for body parts to be in relation to other body parts or places on the rifle.

For me those head position landmarks are the receiver heel, trigger guard, thumb, and cheekbone:

-My thumb touches the left rear corner of the receiver heel
-My middle finger's second knuckle touches the back of the trigger guard resting in the depression in the wood where the TG latch goes
-My thumb touches my right nostril (but not inside!)
-My cheekbone rests on top of my thumb with the cheek skin/fat rolled up
-Chin slightly forward (but not straining) so I look through the center of my eye socket not the top

All in all pretty much like the Army Training Films.

Another trick is to use the Front Sight Screw to aid in sight alignment and checking head position. Get it tangent with the bottom of the Rear Sight Aperture. Move your head around and see how that alignment changes when your head position changes. Combined with your landmarks this will help you maintain a consistent head position.

Whether you'll see any benefit by using a Center Hold (aka Navy Hold) instead of 6 o'clock or any other hold depends on what you can see and repeat. Ditto for the NM Aperture. You may have other vision or shot execution issues that affect your group size and location but neither a different hold nor a new aperture will do anything to fix position issues.

Maury

[Liam]

This is an interesting thread for me since I am a novice at high power position shooting. I'm glad you posted your concerns here on the CSP so others, like me, can benefit from the informed responses. Mr. Krupp's comments are informative and his suggestions helpful. Just out of curiosity, what sling type, glove or mitt (if any) and jacket do you employ? I find that good, repeatable shooting is the result of various factors coming together. I'd like to know what YOUR various factors are and how you bring them together.

[PWC]

Are you adjusting your natural point of aim to match the desired impact point or are you "muscleing" the sights back onto the POI?

[mdoerner]

Well, I don't THINK, I'm muscling the gun, but I can't say for certain that I'm not, and I'll have to pay attention to that. I was only un-shouldering the rifle to chamber an additional round after each shot, but completely breaking position to look thru the scope. So I had to completely re-set after every look thru the scope, and I see that that's PART of my problem. The new scope will be here this week and I will have to go through my setup as far as location of scope, rounds, etc. to ensure I don't have to beak position in order to gain additional information.

I also believe I'm not looking thru the optical center of my glasses, as I had to wipe the "brow" potion of my glasses twice in order to see the sights. However, raising my head to see thru the center of my glasses (large safety glass lenses btw - corrective prescription) then pulls my head off the stock.

Methinks I'll have to not only "dry fire" this month, but in prone position as well, to find out what will work here...

Mike D

[mdoerner]

I use a Champions Choice Coudra jacket and glove. Sling os M1907 repro. FWIW Liam.

The only problem with posting pictures like mine is you get "I suck at High Power" written all over you, but I don't care. I suck at High Power, and want to get better....

Mike Doerner

[mdoerner]

Since Liam is curious as to more targeting pictures, here's the 1st 3 legs of the match I "failed" to break 400 points at....FWIW.

200 Yrd Standing 1 in the 10 ring, 3 in the 9 ring, the rest you can see. Vertical stringing is the issue here. Oh, and I jerked the trigger twice, can you guess which ones?


200 Yrd sitting Vertical stringing....again.


200 yard prone simulating 300 yards. Vertical stringing....well, you guess....


....and then you know what happened in the last stage. FWIW. Thing is, I was 83-0,84-0,and 85-0, and I shoulda had a lot more points had I kept things on the X or in the black even, and broke 400 easy. But it's kinda like football, the favored team SHOULD win, but they have to actually go out and win.....Oh well, until next month.

Mike D

[mdoerner]

Grrrr! That was an 81 not an 83 on the 1st target! It's bad enough I can't shoot, but now I can't add! Aruuugh!

Mike D

[mdoerner]

Also, here's my score for October 2009's match (which I won the Garand category, 395-0 has gotta be the "lowest" winning score, but some days it just pays to show up, it was a toss up between 3 of us...Everyone else brought their AR's that day)

This day I did add things up correctly, with 79-0,85-0,86-0,and 145-0 for the 4 legs. As you can see from the targets, though, I had very "shotgun-like" groupings, but at least all of 'em were on the paper, if not the target. And no, my phone camera is not flakey, the sun and clouds were deciding to mess with us.....Went from sunny, to bright, to sunny, to cloudy.......

200 Yard standing


200 Yard Sitting Rapid


200 Yard (300 Simulated) Prone Rapid


200 Yard (600 Simulated) Prone Slowfire


Hope this helps you in your quest for info. This match was shot with HXP surplus, same equipment as before though regarding shooting jacket, sling, etc....

Mike D

[mdoerner]

That target looks a lot like you're trying to "drive" the rifle. Trying to *force it* to shoot where you want it to instead of letting your position and natural point of aim *let it* shoot where it's going to naturally. That doesn't work; the rifle always wins.

When it comes to positions, everybody's body is different. You need to find what works for your body.

That said, no position should include any straining. Straining means you're using your muscles and that's something you don't want to do. Not only do you get tired but it's impossible to strain the exact same amount the exact same way for every shot. And if nothing else highpower is about being almost obsessive-compulsive about shot-to-shot consistency.

You want your positions to be as relaxed as possible. That way you can repeat them consistently. You may need to stretch or push a bit to get into position, especially at first, but once you're in you should be relaxed with very little to, if possible, no muscle tension.

Another key to a repeatable position are "landmarks." Having specific places for body parts to be in relation to other body parts or places on the rifle.

For me those head position landmarks are the receiver heel, trigger guard, thumb, and cheekbone:

-My thumb touches the left rear corner of the receiver heel
-My middle finger's second knuckle touches the back of the trigger guard resting in the depression in the wood where the TG latch goes
-My thumb touches my right nostril (but not inside!)
-My cheekbone rests on top of my thumb with the cheek skin/fat rolled up
-Chin slightly forward (but not straining) so I look through the center of my eye socket not the top

All in all pretty much like the Army Training Films.

Another trick is to use the Front Sight Screw to aid in sight alignment and checking head position. Get it tangent with the bottom of the Rear Sight Aperture. Move your head around and see how that alignment changes when your head position changes. Combined with your landmarks this will help you maintain a consistent head position.

Whether you'll see any benefit by using a Center Hold (aka Navy Hold) instead of 6 o'clock or any other hold depends on what you can see and repeat. Ditto for the NM Aperture. You may have other vision or shot execution issues that affect your group size and location but neither a different hold nor a new aperture will do anything to fix position issues.

Maury

Thank for your help, Murray. One other thing I've thought of. I did not let my left hand rest against farward swivel in the sling, I tend to "choke-up" and place my have further back. I betcha I varied the sling tension as well. Would this have contributed to the issues seen in the 1st photo? Thanks again for all your help.

Mike D

[Maury Krupp]

Are you calling any of those shots high or low? Do they all look good and is the front sight in focus when they break? Does the front sight return back where it started after recoil or is it somewhere else?

I wonder if you're having vision issues as well as head/position issues

What prescription do you have in those safety glasses? Normal distance? You may need a special shooting prescription, especially if you're at or approaching middle-age.

Instead of moving your head to see through the optical center move your glasses. Tape a foam earplug or two to the nose bridge. That should help some until you decide to buy a proper set of shooting glasses.

If you have a reasonably accurate .22 try practicing with it at 25-50yd. It's a good way to sort out position or execution issues that may be masked by the noise and recoil of the bigger gun.

It can get frustrating when you know you can do better but don't get discouraged. There's a lot going on with every shot and it can take a while to isolate and fix exactly what's going wrong. Then you have to apply that fix each and every time.

But if it was easy we wouldn't be doing it

Maury

PS- "Legs" are points earned toward a Distinguished Rifleman's badge. Matches are composed of Standing, Sitting, Prone Rapid, and Prone Slow "Stages." Stages are composed of one or more 10 shot "Strings"

[Maury Krupp]

...I betcha I varied the sling tension as well. Would this have contributed to the issues seen in the 1st photo?

Yes it can; especially if your hand is slipping forward (which may not be enough to notice but can be enough to affect your group) or you're repositioning your hand every so often and not getting it back in the same exact place each time.

If at all possible jam your non-firing hand up against that sling swivel. If your body can't do that get some "position-in-a-can" and glue your mitt in place. I have to do that for Sitting. It holds the rifle so I can relax.

Also get youself a landmark for the position of the butt in your shoulder. Mine is slightly below the collarbone in the pocket (again just like in the movies ) Inconsistent placement can move your shots up and down too.

Maury

[mdoerner]

Are you calling any of those shots high or low? Do they all look good and is the front sight in focus when they break? Does the front sight return back where it started after recoil or is it somewhere else?

They look good and the front sight is in focus. Those shots may be a bit low because I try and keep a thin sliver of white between the top of the post and the bottom of the target. I know ambient lighting can affect the position of the white sliver, but that was not an issue on this day (cloudy all match). I follow thru with the trigger, but I haven't checked position after recoil, so I'll add that to the list of things to check.

I wonder if you're having vision issues as well as head/position issues

What prescription do you have in those safety glasses? Normal distance? You may need a special shooting prescription, especially if you're at or approaching middle-age.

I was borderline bi-focal at my last checkup. My left eye has changed again (I'm nearsighted) but my right/primary eye is still pretty good. The safety glasses are identical to my regular prescription with the exception of being slightly tinted yellow.

Instead of moving your head to see through the optical center move your glasses. Tape a foam earplug or two to the nose bridge. That should help some until you decide to buy a proper set of shooting glasses.

Great idea.

If you have a reasonably accurate .22 try practicing with it at 25-50yd. It's a good way to sort out position or execution issues that may be masked by the noise and recoil of the bigger gun.

I'll try that if I have time, but my T-Bolt has a monte carlo raised comb and a scope, no irons. It may simply frustrate me further....

It can get frustrating when you know you can do better but don't get discouraged. There's a lot going on with every shot and it can take a while to isolate and fix exactly what's going wrong. Then you have to apply that fix each and every time.

But if it was easy we wouldn't be doing it

Maury

PS- "Legs" are points earned toward a Distinguished Rifleman's badge. Matches are composed of Standing, Sitting, Prone Rapid, and Prone Slow "Stages." Stages are composed of one or more 10 shot "Strings"

Oh, I'm not getting discouraged, but it's a major PITA when you THINK you've done something correctly, and the results say otherwise. I will have to work my positions over the next month, in the basement, with my shooting coat, and get into a consistent position, regardless of the circumstances. I'm ALMOST there, as the 1st 3 "stages" (thanks for correcting me) of the match really only showed my breathing was screwed up (i.e. everything was lined up horizontally, but vertical dispersion) but then I fall apart at the last stage, but honestly, I also get fatigued at that point so that also may have played a part as well.

In any case, thanks for all the pointers, and hopefully, I can come back next month with something besides another problem.

Mike D

[mdoerner]

Yes it can; especially if your hand is slipping forward (which may not be enough to notice but can be enough to affect your group) or you're repositioning your hand every so often and not getting it back in the same exact place each time.

If at all possible jam your non-firing hand up against that sling swivel. If your body can't do that get some "position-in-a-can" and glue your mitt in place. I have to do that for Sitting. It holds the rifle so I can relax.

Also get youself a landmark for the position of the butt in your shoulder. Mine is slightly below the collarbone in the pocket (again just like in the movies ) Inconsistent placement can move your shots up and down too.

Maury

Well, after a practice session or two, I'm going to tighten my sling up one set of holes, and now I am able to keep my hand against the swivel. One of my issues was that I had to "choke up" on the gun to get it lined up with the target (vertically). I'm still working on head position though. I'm able to get my head forward w/o too much strain now (moved the gun butt inward, closer to my noggin). But now I'm concerned under recoil of I'm not going to bruise up my cheek. Oh well, I'll just have to try it and see. Finally, my now Leupold 20-60X80mm scope showed up today, so the entry level Kowa 20-40X50mm is going to get set aside and hopefully I can get myself "arranged" properly w/o having to break from position from now on. Thanks for your help Murry. I'll let you know how the next session goes.

Mike D