Why is it?

[S.A. Boggs]

That if a cop/soldier is killed most people think, "No big deal, he/she knew it could happen" and life goes on until the next time. If a solder/cop shoots someone else in the line of duty all hell breaks loose. Many people have and will never be put in the situation of confronting someone in a lethal interaction. I have never heard/know of a cop being willing to be killed without trying not to. Some guns are carried in a waist area so reaching for your waist area can lead to unfortunate results. Would "you' be willing to wait and see, most likely I wouldn't. Cop go in with little if any information and have to make decisions with available information in a VERY SHORT STRESSFUL time. Are there bad cops, yes there are. I have known some that I wouldn't trust with an unsharpened pencil other's with my life.
Sam

[togor]

So the Mesa shoot wasn't bad? You look at the video and conclude that there can't be anything done to improve training or procedures to try to avoid a repeat?

The answer to the riddle behind your question is that in this world police are the instrument behind both a reasonable state of civil law & order, and an atmosphere of intimidation and tyranny. Where you stand on the police in your area may depend on where you sit, as the saying goes.

[S.A. Boggs]

I have never had a problem with cops in the AO where I was because I took the time to get to know them. Guess what they were all the same, cleaning up society's problems. We expect them to be expendable when necessary, human yet not. "Dirty, lousy, stinking, pigs" or "Where the hell was you we needed you quicker!" the list goes on and on. I have been pulled over without incident or problem as I treated him as I wanted to be treated. Didn't argue with him as this is what court is for. The Chief Deputy is a friend of mine in my county, yet I wouldn't ask him to do anything out of the ordinary same for the Muni Judge. Cops have to make decisions that lawyers and "experts" can take months to examine and tear apart. Cops have been know not to shoot yet were justified if they had. Often the answer was, "I just didn't need to." has often been said. Cops are people not machines so yes mistakes are made. Unless the cop is a sociopath the officer will pay a price for shooting, even if justified. Unless you have been behind the wheel, walked into a darken area, or sat there shaken at what you just experienced it is hard to describe. Dry mouth is not fun or trying to write a report as it is fresh in your mind and your pen shakes as you write. Being called in to explain why you did or didn't do something and replying on judgment it wasn't necessary. Yes I feel strongly about cops, I have seen the pain inflected on them and I don't like it one darned bit.
Sam

[Mark in Ottawa]

When I worked (as a civilian member) for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, one of my colleagues who was a very calm and professional police corporal said that the problem with a shooting situation is that it unfolds in seconds, requiring an almost instantaneous judgement call, sometimes without all the circumstances being understood or known by any party. That split second call is then minutely analyzed in an office or court by people who are not under stress, not facing a firearm and not in a rush. He then finished off by saying that philosophically he felt that under those circumstances it was "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

I might add that some years ago when I was visiting the RCMP training academy in Regina, Saskatchewan I watched some of the live fire scenario training that the recruits undertake. The training that I saw seemed in large part to be dedicated to teaching recruits to be very very careful about when to shoot and when not to shoot. It was actually quite scary because while I was there a recruit got so taken in by the scenario that she shot a child running out from behind a bush. She then stood there in front of the instructor and her troop mates, literally holding a smoking gun and hoping that the concrete floor would open up and carry her away somewhere.

[dogtag]

Many years ago my wife and I had a couple over for dinner.
My wife knew his wife. I knew neither of them.
When they arrived, he immediately went around our living
room snooping. He removed a couple of book so as to look
behind them. I said "WTF are you doing?". He chuckled and
said "looking for drugs"
Five minutes later his wife apologized on the way out.
My son and the neighbor kids knew him all too well.
He was the local bully cop. A sorry SOB.
Moral: some cops shouldn't be cops.

[clintonhater]

Cop go in with little if any information and have to make decisions with available information in a VERY SHORT STRESSFUL time.

Sometimes, but NOT ALWAYS!!! In many of these killings of UNARMED civilians, the cop had ample time to asses any potential threat, but chose to shoot first and investigate later.

[clintonhater]

When I worked (as a civilian member) for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, one of my colleagues who was a very calm and professional police corporal said that the problem with a shooting situation is that it unfolds in seconds, requiring an almost instantaneous judgement call...

That's demonstrably FALSE in many of these killings, where there was absolutely no need for an "instantaneous judgement call." If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the cases previously described.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless you have been behind the wheel, walked into a darken area, or sat there shaken at what you just experienced it is hard to describe. Dry mouth is not fun or trying to write a report as it is fresh in your mind and your pen shakes as you write.

Nobody, as far as I know, is DRAFTED into police work. What's that old saying about the heat in the kitchen?

[S.A. Boggs]

That's demonstrably FALSE in many of these killings, where there was absolutely no need for an "instantaneous judgement call." If you don't know that, you haven't been paying attention to the cases previously described.

- - - Updated - - -



Nobody, as far as I know, is DRAFTED into police work. What's that old saying about the heat in the kitchen?

I get the feeling that you are angry about something else and showing anger towards this issue...why?
Sam

[Allen]

Moral: some cops shouldn't be cops.

True. Most people I know who became cops wanted to--it was in their blood to do so. A few do it because of the power it gives them. While I've never had any problems with municipal police I have seen that power hungry trait in many state troopers which seem to be on an entirely different side of the law where I come from. People seeking power should go into politics.

[Allen]

I think a lot of people blame the police for the way society is now. They think the police release people who should be in jail. They blame the police for looking the other way at times. Believe me, the police don't like this either. They risk their lives sometimes arresting someone just to have a two bit judge set him free. In all cases that I know of in small towns the mayor presides over the chief of police. Often it is the mayor that prevents police from doing their jobs, looking the other way and letting things slide because the mayor has some interest in it.

As far as shooting unarmed people? They should put their hands up or put them in plain view. A cop never knows someone else's intensions. Making a fast move, reaching for something in your pocket and resisting arrest is a sure fire way to get shot while a cop has you apprehend.

While a few bad apples sometimes spoils the whole bushel. I have known a lot of police and they are regular Joe's with a job to do. A lot of them think the whole world is against them and kind of stay to themselves but if you speak to them they will usually open up and carry on a conversation with you. Most of them have seen and heard it all. They may get called because of a mass murder or to get a cat out of a tree or anything in between. I have spent time with police and see some of what they go through.

BTW the liberals on this forum are all 10-96.

[togor]

I got pulled over last week, got about a 200 yard head-start on the transition from 35 mph to 55 mph, about a half-mile out of town. I say I "got pulled over", but in truth as soon as I saw the patrol car in his roadside spot--a few seconds too late, alas--I knew I was toast so I slowed down and turned off the main road and stopped about 3 car lengths down a side road to wait for the officer. In the minute that it took him to reach me, I had my wallet out and on the dash, with my license in my left hand, and those hands at 10 & 2 on the wheel. The window was iced up so I cracked the door, but left it basically shut. I made no attempt to get out (it was pretty cold anyways).

When he came up I said, yeah, he had me. I had come to that town to buy a battery for my daughter's car and in truth I was thinking about what I had to do *after* I got it installed. So I didn't argue with him, I didn't make him work to pull me over, or have the encounter be on the main road where passing traffic may pose a greater hazard to us both. He could see my hands and I gave him my license straight away without an ounce of grief. My whole approach was to do everything I could to make it a zero-stress encounter for him. Maybe for that reason or because it was the holidays or because I had a clean record, he gave me a warning. I sent him off with a handshake and wish for a safe holiday, in the hope that I'm maybe paying it forward to some other guy.

One of the big reasons we have a government is because someone has to say "no" sometimes, and the people don't like doing it themselves. So we have governments who hire cops and bureaucrats to do it, and some of them do it maybe too well. Being a cop is a tough job, and yes, a dangerous one. No one has mentioned it yet, but it seems reasonable to me that if cops are on shorter trigger, part of the reason may be the number of guns out there. Not being a LEO I can't say for sure if that is the case, or what anyone expects might be done about it, but I don't think the number of guns in circulation is going down anytime soon. Better training is our best line of defense right now.

[clintonhater]

I get the feeling that you are angry about something else and showing anger towards this issue...why?
Sam

You got the wrong feeling. I'm angry (as anybody with a sense of ethics should be) about the continual whitewashing of these unjustified killings of innocent people. It could happen to me and it could happen to YOU.

[S.A. Boggs]

You got the wrong feeling. I'm angry (as anybody with a sense of ethics should be) about the continual whitewashing of these unjustified killings of innocent people. It could happen to me and it could happen to YOU.

Some shootings are not right, that I agree with you. We use to call cops with an attitude the "John Wayne Syndrome" fortunately I encountered very few of these. Most were just doing a job that they loved, helping keep the community as safe as possible. Things have changed dramatically within the last 30-40 years and cops have reacted by doing less. Cops are not so much afraid of being killed as being sued or jailed. In Chicago cops were belittled on how they did their jobs so guess what happened. Yep, the beat cops backed off and what then happened...crime went up. Togor did the right thing, he treated the cop the way he wanted to be treated and the end results were positive. Cops prefer to give a verbal warning rather then write a ticket because this is easier for them. I have never personally known of a department having a quota for the cops to meet. Cops don't want to go to court on their day off yet this happens quite regularly because of a ticket they wrote. Training? that is a joke as most small departments can't afford to issue practice ammo to keep skills from going rusty. Local departments have to gas up at gas stations so this greatly affects their budget. I am trying to go thru the federal hurdles so that I can legally provide practice ammo to the local offices at cost so they can practice. Just doing this is darn near impossible because of regulations. Until society changes in their attitude towards cops and <cops fear this will continue to occur as the one law of the streets will apply. It is better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6 will apply. Have you ever personally thanked a cop for just being there? Bought them a meal? Cops appreciate a kind word, a simple smile instead of a frown. Look to your local department that serves your area, is there anything that you personally can do to help make their life easier? The "I pay taxes" routine is simply not enough it is akin to "I go to church so I am a good person" doesn't apply. Positive action speaks louder then meaningless words. Think of getting some of your buddies together to create a training fund for your department to help them >their ability to train and take care of you better? Instead of demanding better policing how about the reverse doing better moral/financial support for the police. Instead of being shocked and angered at these shooting [which you have no control over] how about helping the local cops over what you do have control over. YOU are either part of the problem or part of the solution it is as simple as that. Jesus gave me one simple rule, treat others as I want to be treated, how hard can that be?
Sam

[togor]

Sam, you're painting police as victims of a stressful job environment and hostile society. I believe that is a mistake and I believe most good cops would strongly disagree with the characterization. But if you are in fact correct, then it's something that needs to be changed, because these victims are authorized to use deadly force. Last thing we need are police going around with chip on their shoulder about the rotten public. That's not what the public pays taxes to get.

Teachers have to deal with all kinds of kids, and all kinds of parents. Some of these parents, their sense of entitlement and hostility towards the school system runs pretty high. Teachers have to learn how to deal with it. Some can, and some can't. The ones that can't should find some other line of work, but not enough of them do.

In both occupations, better pay to go with higher expectations would attract a better pool of applicants.

[S.A. Boggs]

Sam, you're painting police as victims of a stressful job environment and hostile society. I believe that is a mistake and I believe most good cops would strongly disagree with the characterization. But if you are in fact correct, then it's something that needs to be changed, because these victims are authorized to use deadly force. Last thing we need are police going around with chip on their shoulder about the rotten public. That's not what the public pays taxes to get.

Teachers have to deal with all kinds of kids, and all kinds of parents. Some of these parents, their sense of entitlement and hostility towards the school system runs pretty high. Teachers have to learn how to deal with it. Some can, and some can't. The ones that can't should find some other line of work, but not enough of them do.

In both occupations, better pay to go with higher expectations would attract a better pool of applicants.

Have you ANY personal experience to back up your statements, I have. The only ones that I have personally encountered with a "chip" were the ones who were detained for a crime. Most cops just shrug their shoulder and go on doing the best with what they have. I have seen more "victim" teachers then cops to be frank. One of my college buddies is now Sheriff back home and was a deputy then. The National Socialist trash talk that he had to put up from professors at times was hard to fathom. National Socialism and their making "victim" of the downtrodden is being brought to light and Americans are seeing it for what it is...that of milking the "victim, race card" of being appointed to "Protect" the less fortunate. If a cop does something against the law then by all means bring them to trial and let 12 people try them.
Sam