San Francisco Cops Fire 65 Shots In 15 Seconds At Murder Suspect

[steelap]

Human nature. Some just aren't capable of pulling the trigger on another human. British noticed this even in the days of ranks and volley fire with smoothbore muskets.

S.L.A Marshall - Men Against Fire - US study of soldiers in combat. Used to be a must read for young officers.

[Major Tom]

Cops are the lousiest shots.
I remember when they came to my club, you could count
on holes in your target you didn't put there.

At our indoor range the cops regularly shot out the ceiling lights and panels!

[Clark Howard]

The next time you are in SFO, peer into a few patrol cars. That should answer you question. Regards, Clark

[Vern Humphrey]

cant do any worse can they!

Well, yeah, they can. There are counties in Arkansas with more than 50% adult illiteracy -- and yet the schools are fully funded.

[Sandpebble]

Ya know Vern I'm with ya on this one ....

but on the other hand we'll live with that .... and yet we'll be insulted by the immigrant who has a hard time with English ...

build a wall around Arkansas maybe ?

[leftyo]

Well, yeah, they can. There are counties in Arkansas with more than 50% adult illiteracy -- and yet the schools are fully funded.

teachers cant shoot any worse than those cops. was not talking about anything else.

[dogtag]

Just saw a program showing how Cops practice shooting
until they can "do it with their eyes closed"
So, there you have it. the Cops think that's how to shoot,
- with their eyes closed.

[Vern Humphrey]

S.L.A Marshall - Men Against Fire - US study of soldiers in combat. Used to be a must read for young officers.

You are aware that SLA Marshall made up all his data?

He claimed at the end of WWII that he had interviewed in depth 400 companies. By the time he wrote Men Against Fire it had become 600 companies. He did all that working for the Office of Military History, and his notes are Army property. They are at Carlisle Barracks, PA -- and they do not support his claims. People who were with him say he never discussed the issues in his book.

And history runs against him. For example:

• In the Civil War, Ordnance officers reported frequently finding abandoned muskets with two or more charges in them -- soldiers under fire TRIED to fire, but under stress forgot to cap the nipple.
• At the Little Big Horn, Benteen had to have his men share ammo with Reno's men -- they had shot up about half their ammo down in the river botton.
• In Viet Nam, where I was a company commander, the problem was to get men NOT to fire full auto, and to teach them methodical, aimed fire.

[blackhawknj]

In the thick jungles and forests of Vietnam with sleep deprived troops battling hunger and heat exhaustion, methodical aimed fired was hard to achieve. We used our M-16s like the PPSh M1941 and PPS M1943-point and pull at a noise. The Army wised up and installed blocking mechanisms on the later issues.
At Cedar Creek in 1991 a fellow in my unit must have got a triple charge in his P1853 Enfield-blanks of course. Sounded like a clap of thunder, knocked him and his file mate down. When we got back to camp we found the wrist of his stock cracked.
I wonder how many casualties were inflicted by ramrods fired at the enemy ?

[steelap]

- - - Updated - - -

You are aware that SLA Marshall made up all his data?

He claimed at the end of WWII that he had interviewed in depth 400 companies. By the time he wrote Men Against Fire it had become 600 companies. He did all that working for the Office of Military History, and his notes are Army property. They are at Carlisle Barracks, PA -- and they do not support his claims. People who were with him say he never discussed the issues in his book.

And history runs against him. For example:

• In the Civil War, Ordnance officers reported frequently finding abandoned muskets with two or more charges in them -- soldiers under fire TRIED to fire, but under stress forgot to cap the nipple.
• At the Little Big Horn, Benteen had to have his men share ammo with Reno's men -- they had shot up about half their ammo down in the river botton.
• In Viet Nam, where I was a company commander, the problem was to get men NOT to fire full auto, and to teach them methodical, aimed fire.

Thinking back, I may have heard that some time ago. It's hell getting old.

Thank you for the correction. Has anyone else published studies?

[kickshot7]

I am shocked, didn’t think Californian had it in them.

[Art]

"Good against remotes is one thing, good against the living is something else" Han Solo.

I see that U.S. soldiers and Marines, all professionals are now using 250,000 rounds of small arms ammunition to kill one insurgent in the "sand box" where conditions actually do often favor aimed fire. Does that make them worse shots than cops, absolutely not, it does illustrate the real problem though.

How well LEOs shoot "in the gravest extreme" depends on the training of individual departments and what unit said cop is in and the individual psychological makeup of the individual officer. That training can run from excellent to very poor. Feds expend at least 1,000 rounds of ammunition per Agent per year and qualify quarterly. Most departments can't afford that kind of ammo expenditure, the Feds can. I personally never saw one Agent I knew personally that wasn't at least competent with a pistol.....on the range; and a lot of the time that was firing .357 Magnum revolvers with magnum ammo. Against a hostile bad guy whose moving and shooting back, well that's something else and a lot of personal qualities that don't have that much to do with marksmanship come into play. Cop training has become steadily more realistic and useful over the last half century. Qualification with my agency when I first started in 1972 was, in my opinion, combat worthless. NYPD training which I also took in 1972 due to an agreement with them by my agency was excellent for the time. Specialized training I took late in my career which did involve moving targets, shooting on the move and engaging roll playing professionals with a much higher level of competence than almost any thug you'd find on the street would be state of the art even today.

There are, I know, at least a few "experts" on these forums who comment regularly on this stuff who have never "seen the elephant."

Revolvers were mentioned. Under stress all but the best trained, and I mean professional SWAT team or Army Ranger trained, tend to shoot themselves dry in a few seconds. If there are 17 rounds in the weapon they'll shoot 17, if there are six they'll shoot six. I personally am a big fan of wheelguns for cop side arms just for that reason but that's never happening.

I belong to a gun club. Virtually everybody there has a LTC. I watch these people shoot pistols. They don't train, they plink. What they do on the range is going to be almost worthless in a real fight no matter how good they feel about carefully assuming a stance, and shooting little tiny groups at six feet. My club allows actual training and I take advantage of that. Most people don't because it has an adverse effect on group size. Soooo anybody who tells you the average civilian with a gun, many of whom almost never shoot their carry gun are better than the average cop, well they're full of it.

Could armed teachers do worse than cops in the schools??? You're darned right they could. Rescue shooting is a skill that requires talent and relentless training and most of all a "cold heart and an iron hand." I've known some of those people and they are very few and far between. Now cops in non street assignments tend to be "expendable" cops who aren't terribly useful in the field or who simply don't want to be in the field so get themselves a job doing something else. It's just human nature. So, in my humble opinion, an armed cop in a school is usually going to be the lesser of two evils when compared to an armed teacher.

My $.05 worth understanding that I'm not changing a lot of minds and certainly not any predjudices.

[togor]

Art, your posts are a pleasure to read.

[Sandpebble]

Art ... your five cents worth.... was worth more than that

[S.A. Boggs]

"Good against remotes is one thing, good against the living is something else" Han Solo.

I see that U.S. soldiers and Marines, all professionals are now using 250,000 rounds of small arms ammunition to kill one insurgent in the "sand box" where conditions actually do often favor aimed fire. Does that make them worse shots than cops, absolutely not, it does illustrate the real problem though.

How well LEOs shoot "in the gravest extreme" depends on the training of individual departments and what unit said cop is in and the individual psychological makeup of the individual officer. That training can run from excellent to very poor. Feds expend at least 1,000 rounds of ammunition per Agent per year and qualify quarterly. Most departments can't afford that kind of ammo expenditure, the Feds can. I personally never saw one Agent I knew personally that wasn't at least competent with a pistol.....on the range; and a lot of the time that was firing .357 Magnum revolvers with magnum ammo. Against a hostile bad guy whose moving and shooting back, well that's something else and a lot of personal qualities that don't have that much to do with marksmanship come into play. Cop training has become steadily more realistic and useful over the last half century. Qualification with my agency when I first started in 1972 was, in my opinion, combat worthless. NYPD training which I also took in 1972 due to an agreement with them by my agency was excellent for the time. Specialized training I took late in my career which did involve moving targets, shooting on the move and engaging roll playing professionals with a much higher level of competence than almost any thug you'd find on the street would be state of the art even today.

There are, I know, at least a few "experts" on these forums who comment regularly on this stuff who have never "seen the elephant."

Revolvers were mentioned. Under stress all but the best trained, and I mean professional SWAT team or Army Ranger trained, tend to shoot themselves dry in a few seconds. If there are 17 rounds in the weapon they'll shoot 17, if there are six they'll shoot six. I personally am a big fan of wheelguns for cop side arms just for that reason but that's never happening.

I belong to a gun club. Virtually everybody there has a LTC. I watch these people shoot pistols. They don't train, they plink. What they do on the range is going to be almost worthless in a real fight no matter how good they feel about carefully assuming a stance, and shooting little tiny groups at six feet. My club allows actual training and I take advantage of that. Most people don't because it has an adverse effect on group size. Soooo anybody who tells you the average civilian with a gun, many of whom almost never shoot their carry gun are better than the average cop, well they're full of it.

Could armed teachers do worse than cops in the schools??? You're darned right they could. Rescue shooting is a skill that requires talent and relentless training and most of all a "cold heart and an iron hand." I've known some of those people and they are very few and far between. Now cops in non street assignments tend to be "expendable" cops who aren't terribly useful in the field or who simply don't want to be in the field so get themselves a job doing something else. It's just human nature. So, in my humble opinion, an armed cop in a school is usually going to be the lesser of two evils when compared to an armed teacher.

My $.05 worth understanding that I'm not changing a lot of minds and certainly not any predjudices.

Art, back in the 1980 our department sent some of us to the Street Survival Course. Did you take it and if so, what is your opinion. It opened my eyes on different ways to kill a cop and it was scary.
Sam