Supplying Crime Guns

[togor]

In my view, people who are pro 2A should have no patience for this kind of thing. I was taught that freedom and responsibility go hand-in-hand, that we practice self-restraint precisely so that government rules don't come into being.

https://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/courts/feds-move-to-keep-guns-taken-from-madison-man-during/article_518bc549-6edd-5fd4-a51c-974bd60125d8.html

From the article:

In October 2015, ATF conducted a compliance check on the firearms dealer and found the Madison man had purchased 41 guns from the dealer over a one-year period, structuring the purchases so that they occurred every six days, avoiding federal requirements to report multiple handgun sales. A licensed firearms dealer must tell ATF if two or more firearms are bought by the same person within a five-day period.

The 68-year-old Madison man, interviewed by ATF agents at his home in December 2015, said he receives $21,000 per year in Social Security and disability benefits, spends about $2,000 per month buying guns and buys 30 to 40 guns per year. He had records of purchase transactions, he told ATF, but not a record of the June 2015 transaction.

So far the feds haven't charged him, but they are looking to relieve him of his inventory. It's this sort of chain of face-to-face sales that resupplies the crooks. Want to reduce the flow of guns into criminal hands? Clamp down on this supply chain. I hope they do charge him, and not say that there are no laws on the books to cover this.

[dogtag]

So, who's to say how many firearms a person can own ? You ?
So you've taken it upon yourself to accuse him of selling guns to criminals ?
Thank God you're just a nobody.

[togor]

DT try reading the article again. He was buying $2K/month worth of guns on a $21K Social Security check. Year in and year out. Buying guns for the purpose of reselling them for an income stream makes him a dealer trying to use the FTF loophole. This is not a collector selling off arms accumulated over many years through some mix of FFL transfers and FTF sales. No one has a problem with that, including me and the BATFE.

A few points to consider:
1) he has to charge a markup otherwise it doesn't work
2) his clientele are going to be people who are willing to pay a premium for FTF sales with no 4473, otherwise they could go get the gun cheaper at the shop where this guy bought it
3) he was doing it long enough that he admitted to having regular commerce partners, and he kept records (which may interest the Wisconsin Dept. of Revenue).

So even if he was being incredibly naive, and had only pure motives, the fact remains that this sort of commerce is how guns get in the hands of crooks. People who point to Chicago with all of the shootings overlook the fact that there are guys like this guy who profit on the trade that sends the guns to Chicago in the first place.

Meanwhile, in many parts of rural America, there is talk of making it harder to get opioids, and pressure on the pharma companies that fatten their bottom line on opioid sales. Nobody seems to have a problem with that. My point is that with guns like pills, not every sale is a good one, and there is nothing wrong with trying to end the bad sales. I'd be OK with letting this guy transfer his inventory to a FFL dealer at wholesale prices, but probably it's just easier to seize them.

[RED]

DT try reading the article again. He was buying $2K/month worth of guns on a $21K Social Security check.

And how do you know that is his only source of income? You must have read it on Wapo or hear it on CNN and they are never wrong, right? So what he gets $21,000 from the SS... How do you know he doesn't get another $36,000 from his 401K and grandma left him another $50,000/year in a trust. You know that ain't so because you know all there is to know about about everything and EVERYBODY in the USA.

Then there is this little blurb from your article:

When ATF agents executed the search warrant at the Martha Lane home on Feb. 16, they seized 12 notebooks containing transactions, business cards and notes that contain financial records, along with the 44 handguns and rifles.

Tell us why a guy who was intentionally running guns illegally would keep 12 note books of evidence for the Fed's?

Agitate, agitate, agitate, agitate is all you know and all you ever do.... GO AWAY TROLL!!!!

[Sandpebble]

However .... red..... at the rate of 40 guns a year over... how long? ....

The question stands.... where are all those guns now ?

[togor]

Intentional or not, his use of FTF sales, acting as an unlicensed dealer, put multiple crime guns on the street and led to fatalities.

Red deliberately turns a blind eye to a gun trade that leads to dead cops. Red also celebrates government policies that deliberately inflict cruelty on little kids as a negotiating tactic. I was an excellent student with a long memory, and Red the conservative movement I knew when I was young would throw you out on your ear. Agitate for the early demise of your movement, which is not conservative at all? Heck yeah.

[barretcreek]

O.K. to add some seasoning to the sausage here's what happened to me . Bought an 1896 Krag at a show; here we have to do the background at shows. Older guy I bought it from lays my check, with my DL info and signature on his table and is talking with his buddies about some broad he dated in '36 or something. Looks down and the check is gone. He comes up here and we file a report at the SO. Our checks are done by the state not the feds so I ask the lady at that office if my DL can be flagged and send me an email anytime "I buy a gun". No can do. Until ATF can prove my ID is being used to make illicit purchases it's just "move along".

I fully expect to get dragged into court someday over this crap.

[Allen]

Just reading the headline topic of this thread I come up with this:

Supplying crime guns = "Fast and Furious" = Eric Holder

[togor]

O.K. to add some seasoning to the sausage here's what happened to me . Bought an 1896 Krag at a show; here we have to do the background at shows. Older guy I bought it from lays my check, with my DL info and signature on his table and is talking with his buddies about some broad he dated in '36 or something. Looks down and the check is gone. He comes up here and we file a report at the SO. Our checks are done by the state not the feds so I ask the lady at that office if my DL can be flagged and send me an email anytime "I buy a gun". No can do. Until ATF can prove my ID is being used to make illicit purchases it's just "move along".

I fully expect to get dragged into court someday over this crap.

DL info on checks frowned upon now for just that reason. Gov't still likes the SSN on the check you send them though. Wish they'd drop that.

[JB White]

I'd like to read the article but I do not wish to subscribe, nor do I want to comply with their request to turn off my Ad Blocker.

[RED]

Intentional or not, his use of FTF sales, acting as an unlicensed dealer, put multiple crime guns on the street and led to fatalities.

Red deliberately turns a blind eye to a gun trade that leads to dead cops. .

Any gun bought from a licensed dealer can and has way too often been used in murders of cops and others. (BTW, Paddock bought his guns legally from licensed dealers.) I would bet that any gun shop that has ever legally sold over a 100 guns has sold one that was used in a crime. Gun sellers, licensed or not, cannot control how their product is used. A car dealer cannot guarantee the car he sold won't be used tomorrow by a drunk driver to run into a crowd and kill people. What you are getting at is the Idea that we need to stop selling guns... period. You are totally anti gun all the time... You seem to think guns kill people... that is another one of your lies. People kill people and no amount of gun control will stop that from happening.

[RED]

. Red also celebrates government policies that deliberately inflict cruelty on little kids as a negotiating tactic. I was an excellent student with a long memory, and Red the conservative movement I knew when I was young would throw you out on your ear. Agitate for the early demise of your movement, which is not conservative at all? Heck yeah.

Another intentional agitation and total lie. I am in favor of lawful immigration and in favor of obeying the law. My daughter in law is now a citizen that legally immigrated to the U.S., speaks and writes the language, (far better than Leftyo) All you have to do is look up Ellis Island... Millions of good people came here legally and yes they and their children were detained, and yes a lot of people were sent back to their country. togor says, "Screw the law, lets have open borders and let the scum of the world come here. That way we we can reduce the USA to the level of Haiti or Venezuela." People that could purchase airline tickets to legal ports of entry are paying $10,000 to coyotes to come here illegally. That's fine for the outlaws, murderers, MS13, and other togor favorites. They pack children onto the tops of trains, they know their little girls are going to be raped and abused (far worse than anything that any decent person would abide) and they do it anyway because they don't give a damn. And togor has the balls to say Trump is abusing these kids. What a low life. He has yet to be right about anything.

[barretcreek]

DL info on checks frowned upon now for just that reason. Gov't still likes the SSN on the check you send them though. Wish they'd drop that.

Seller wouldn't accept my check without putting my DL info on it. As far as I am concerned the stupid old fool is on the hook for anything bad which comes out of this.

[S.A. Boggs]

Another intentional agitation and total lie. I am in favor of lawful immigration and in favor of obeying the law. My daughter in law is now a citizen that legally immigrated to the U.S., speaks and writes the language, (far better than Leftyo) All you have to do is look up Ellis Island... Millions of good people came here legally and yes they and their children were detained, and yes a lot of people were sent back to their country. togor says, "Screw the law, lets have open borders and let the scum of the world come here. That way we we can reduce the USA to the level of Haiti or Venezuela." People that could purchase airline tickets to legal ports of entry are paying $10,000 to coyotes to come here illegally. That's fine for the outlaws, murderers, MS13, and other togor favorites. They pack children onto the tops of trains, they know their little girls are going to be raped and abused (far worse than anything that any decent person would abide) and they do it anyway because they don't give a damn. And togor has the balls to say Trump is abusing these kids. What a low life. He has yet to be right about anything.

Red, you are being harsh on a fellow human being. I mean, after all look at what he has personally done and is so shy as not to mention it.
Sam

[togor]

I'd like to read the article but I do not wish to subscribe, nor do I want to comply with their request to turn off my Ad Blocker.

Hi JB, I'll give a synopsis.

Older gentleman on the east side of Madison, living on a fixed income of $21K from Social Security, has been acting as an unlicensed gun dealer. Feds started investigating him in 2015 when some quantity of firearms sold to him ended up in crime scenes in Chicago and Milwaukee. One of the guns that passed through him shot Paul Bauer in Chicago. The guy kept records, but appeared to be deliberately flying below the BATFE radar, by stringing out those purchases from a dealer that required a 4473, so as to stay below a reporting threshold. Per the story he had received a warning from the BATFE to stop unlicensed sales and get an FFL. Unclear what the timing on that was. But right after the Paul Bauer shooting the Feds took his inventory and now they want to keep it. Sounds like they're trying to put him out of business instead of putting him in jail.

The east side of Madison of course for anyone who knows the area has the strongest Chicago and Milwaukee connections. So he would have to be a complete idiot to not know where some of these FTF guns are going. It's guys like these that give the law writers an excuse to clamp down on all FTF sales, no exceptions, so to my way of thinking they're part of the problem because they push things too far for a few bucks.