Leaving NATO?

[S.A. Boggs]

Personally I for one would like to see America pull our troops home and let Europe take care of their own defense. @ one time NATO made sense but not now to any degree. Germany has linked up commercially with Russia with the fuel buy and Russia can pull the plug when the German's need it the most. From a strategic point this fuel deal made no sense. Our money could be better spent here and certainly our troops would be happier.
Sam

[clintonhater]

Nato's next "defensive" action may be attacking Hungary or Slovakia because those small countries are resisting the Turd World invasion of their borders; in fact, Hungary has already been threatened with expulsion from the EU.

[m1ashooter]

Yep NATO is now just a political jobs program. They have a bloated structure heavy with civilians and staff officers and not enough combat strength. How ever who is the threat that they need a combat force? The Red Army and Warsaw Pact isn't standing on the German Border any longer.

We need to focus on rebuilding a SEATO type organization

[Eddie Parks]

Nato has no combat strength, at least not in any real form. Nor does the EU have any power to give orders to Nato to invade anyone. The EU would of course
like to merge all national armies under one federal command, and we can all see where that would finish up.

[Sandpebble]

Personally I for one would like to see America pull our troops home and let Europe take care of their own defense. @ one time NATO made sense but not now to any degree. Germany has linked up commercially with Russia with the fuel buy and Russia can pull the plug when the German's need it the most. From a strategic point this fuel deal made no sense. Our money could be better spent here and certainly our troops would be happier.
Sam

Well Sam... I may well agree with you on the let Europe take care of themselves.... however there is this thing called the Military Industrial Complex .

Large investors... meaning large voters.... have been living pretty well for many many decades on our need for arms for ourselves and others for the endless wars, whether those wars are needed or not .

Trump is totally understanding of this as he just said he is ready to help some NATO states buy U.S. arms ......

Of course he is as there is a very large amount of "large voters" living high on the hog on the MIC .

Trump will cry about the Europeans not spending enough on defense but will change his tune if they purchase from us.

That sounds pretty good business wise I guess .... but if your retirement comes from investments in Brown and Root , Haliburton , Blackwater etc. during thier efforts from Vietnam through Iraq/ Afghanistan .... then I think you are a schmuck.

And yes Sam... those troops would have been happier right here sealing our own border instead of borders 10,000 miles away with no need to build a wall ....

..... but not enough would get rich from that..... so it's likely we will stay firmly entrenched in Nato

[dryheat]

Mine the border(with lots of warning signs per PC). A whole lot less expensive and it keeps the MIC working. Yeah, a few rabbits and coyotes will get blown up but they aren't endangered. Some rabbits blown up kind of sends a message too. It's all win-win. Why do I have to do everything?

[S.A. Boggs]

Well Sam... I may well agree with you on the let Europe take care of themselves.... however there is this thing called the Military Industrial Complex .

Large investors... meaning large voters.... have been living pretty well for many many decades on our need for arms for ourselves and others for the endless wars, whether those wars are needed or not .

Trump is totally understanding of this as he just said he is ready to help some NATO states buy U.S. arms ......

Of course he is as there is a very large amount of "large voters" living high on the hog on the MIC .

Trump will cry about the Europeans not spending enough on defense but will change his tune if they purchase from us.

That sounds pretty good business wise I guess .... but if your retirement comes from investments in Brown and Root , Haliburton , Blackwater etc. during thier efforts from Vietnam through Iraq/ Afghanistan .... then I think you are a schmuck.

And yes Sam... those troops would have been happier right here sealing our own border instead of borders 10,000 miles away with no need to build a wall ....

..... but not enough would get rich from that..... so it's likely we will stay firmly entrenched in Nato

You are correct on this, didn't Eisenhower warn this in the late 50's? I have no problem arming for defense, but the question is how much is enough. The cost of our new fighter jets, the navy destroyers that could pay for several ships. Practice small arms ammo for the military that costs more then I can reload for...economically it makes no sense. Use it up, wear it out, do with it or do without. Destroying useful small arms in Cap'n Crunch at Anniston, selling off equipment for a pittance with just a few hours on their meter's. It makes no sense to me, none at all.
Sam

[Vern Humphrey]

I remember a German general, commanding a NATO corps about 20-30 years ago. He used to say, "I go to my German troops and tell them what they must do. I go to the British and tell them what they must NOT do. I go to the Americans and ask what they're going to do. I go to the Dutch and plead with them to do SOMETHING, anything. And I go to the Belgians and take tea, because they're not going to do anything, no matter how much I plead."

[Vern Humphrey]

Mine the border(with lots of warning signs per PC). A whole lot less expensive and it keeps the MIC working. Yeah, a few rabbits and coyotes will get blown up but they aren't endangered. Some rabbits blown up kind of sends a message too. It's all win-win. Why do I have to do everything?

I was in the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea in '80 and '81. As Deputy Operations Officer, one of my greatest headaches was the minefields. You can't keep them mapped -- they migrate, getting washed out in rainstorms and so on. Mine our southern borders and you will not only kill civilians well outside the mined area, but you will also be giving free explosives to terrorists, who will re-use the mines against you.

[S.A. Boggs]

I was in the 2nd Infantry Division in Korea in '80 and '81. As Deputy Operations Officer, one of my greatest headaches was the minefields. You can't keep them mapped -- they migrate, getting washed out in rainstorms and so on. Mine our southern borders and you will not only kill civilians well outside the mined area, but you will also be giving free explosives to terrorists, who will re-use the mines against you.

You could post a "Danger Hillary" sign, that could scare some of them.
Sam

[Bill D]

Probably attract more than it would scare.

[JohnPeeff]

Vern, Back to your German Gen comment, remember the REFORGER NATO exercises ? I went on 2 in the 70's up in northern Germany.30,000 troops, supposed to last a month, both times the Dutch Div had to quit because their soldiers union voted to strike-didn't want to work on the weekend!

[dryheat]

Civilized people. Now Syrians,et al on the other hand know nothing other than killing each other all day, everyday, until whatever they consider the end.

[Vern Humphrey]

Vern, Back to your German Gen comment, remember the REFORGER NATO exercises ? I went on 2 in the 70's up in northern Germany.30,000 troops, supposed to last a month, both times the Dutch Div had to quit because their soldiers union voted to strike-didn't want to work on the weekend!

Yep -- they'd do the same if the Mongol hordes were pouring over their borders. The Dutch learned nothing from WWII.

[togor]

Dutch are interesting. They have a stubborn belief in bureaucratic procedure that can make them hard to work with. On the other hand, Schiphol IMO is the best run airport in Europe. I trust their security procedures more than I do the Americans.

A couple years ago I was flying back on a 747, one of the last that Delta was operating on the transatlantic route. I was in 52C, and we were pushed back from the gate on schedule, holding in the gate area before taxiing to the runway. As people who fly know, planes can get a little stuffy on the tarmac. Anyways, after about 20 minutes, I hear on the intercom "if there is a physician on the plane, could he come to seat 53A?" Uh oh. One row behind me. Long story short, an elderly man had fainted during the tarmac hold. He swore he was OK, but the aircrew, on consultation with the three doctors, decided to go back to the gate and take him and his wife off. Did they have checked bags? Yes they did!

I had a tighter connection than desirable in Detroit, and you never make up time flying west, so I'm thinking..."uh oh, there goes my connection". It took that Dutch ground crew about a half hour to find the bags and repack the load. I give those guys a lot of credit, because they didn't fart around. I did make my Detroit connection with 10 minutes to spare!

So for some things, I'm more than happy to business with the Dutch. Other things, they're a giant PITA.