McNamara, politics and the M14-16 debacle.

[S.A. Boggs]

I became intrigued many years ago as to why the M14 was dropped and the XM16 was taken up. I have read many opinions based on actual documentation and 3rd bar stool down. Dick posted much that I had read no where else. Now that we have had the M16 morph into the M4, will politics rear it's ugly head in the selection of a "modern" service carbine?
Sam

[PWC]

Seems "Macnamara's band" clones think the AR type can do anything if you hang enough stuff off them.

[Vern Humphrey]

I wouldn't say that -- and personally I disliked the M16 when it was introduced. But more than 50 years later it has had so many engineering changes that the bugs are all worked out. There isn't any weapon on the horizon that offers a marked improvement -- especially when you factor in all the undiscovered bugs any new weapon will have.

[blackhawknj]

of course they ignored the wisdom of having the rifle and machine gun firing the same round. 50 years later they still can't get the 5.56 to serve as a machine gun round.

[dogtag]

They talked Britain and all into deserting a small caliber in favor of the 308,
then went back to the small caliber - pissing everybody off.
The M14 was and still is a beaut.

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't say that -- and personally I disliked the M16 when it was introduced. But more than 50 years later it has had so many engineering changes that the bugs are all worked out. There isn't any weapon on the horizon that offers a marked improvement -- especially when you factor in all the undiscovered bugs any new weapon will have.

The original bug was the fault of the ammunition.

[Vern Humphrey]

They talked Britain and all into deserting a small caliber in favor of the 308,
then went back to the small caliber - pissing everybody off.
The M14 was and still is a beaut.

- - - Updated - - -



The original bug was the fault of the ammunition.

Well . . . there were MANY original bugs.

And saying anything was the fault of the ammunition is like the Canadians blaming British ammunition for the failure of their Ross rifles in WWI. Military rifles are supposed to function with substandard ammo -- because quality often deteriorates in war time.

[togor]

I had some Radway Green SS109 ammo, '89 headstamp, that was downloaded for the L85. It wouldn't cycle properly in my Armalite with the 20" barrel that can eat M193 and M855 all day long without a hiccup. Good brass for reloading, though. Anyhow I tend to think that the Brits added to their own miseries with the 5.56mm cartridge.

I know several people who own ARs "just in case" but never bother to shoot them. I wonder if, God Forbid, there really is a SHTF moment, how many of those firearms will be of practical use to their owners. Even with bugs worked out they still have their little ways. I know mine very much like being run wet. Perhaps for our desert friends it's another story, or a luxury they can't afford.

[Allen]

To my knowledge the M14 never had any bugs except that it climbed too badly for F/A firing. No dead, bayoneted U.S. soldiers laying in their foxholes with loaded, jammed m14's like was common with the M16's.

.308 holes make invisible souls. Then there's the rifle that shoots the BB's.

[Vern Humphrey]

I liked the M14 very much. I trained on the M1 and my first tour in Viet Nam, I was an adviser to Viet Namese infantry. As an adviser I was issued an M2 carbine, which got wrapped around a tree. I bummed an M1 off the ARVN and used that for the rest of my tour. My second tour, I was a company commander and bullied my battalion commander into getting me two M14 sniper rifles (pre-M21). I had one man who had been to the 3rd MarDiv sniper school, and he got one of them. I kept the other. The M14 in the hands of a man who knows how to use it is a formidable weapon.

[PWC]

For any who haven't read it, go to the green header banner of this page and click on Major Culiver's "Saga of the M16"

[Major Tom]

I carried the M14 while in 'Nam in '66-'67. Altho it was heavier and the ammo load was heavy too, it still was what we preferred to carry. The M14 cut thru brush, heavy folige and even trees. When we were issued the M16 we were all very unhappy with it.

[togor]

Ordnance was making mistakes long before Eugene Stoner came into the picture. Each of the previous 3 service rifles had design/production snafus.

[Roadkingtrax]

Ordnance was making mistakes long before Eugene Stoner came into the picture. Each of the previous 3 service rifles had design/production snafus.

Which I believe is why history tells us they closed the Armory, and shifted to private industry and that new set of problems therein.

[S.A. Boggs]

McNamara didn't see the need for Springfield and Rock Island, so Springfield had to go. Part of his dislike was their involvement with the M14 vs. the XM16E1 and the "futuristic" rifle concept. The promise of a lighter carbine, no cleaning, space age polymers and this from the guy who gave America the Edsel. General Curtis Lemay wanted to replace the .30 Carbine that his base security used after shooting the AR-15 @ a 4th of July picnic. The problem of the gas system has never been resolved and many have solved it. CMMG has a good piston system, why the Army still used the current gas system is a wonder to me.
Sam

[Roadkingtrax]

The length of time direct impingement has been fielded in the AR platform would suggest its not problematic. Design improvements were required when first fielded, those went hand in hand with the change of powder used in contemporary military produced ammunition.