How long can a debauched society survive ? ...

[dogtag]

Putting Socialism to one side for the moment, at present
we have marihuana use spreading everywhere, we have
an opioid crisis with drug overdoses killing over 72,000
in 2017. Drugs are pouring across the border and
Americans are gobbling them up as fast as they can get
their mouths around them. Then there's the new sensation
to wet the perverts appetite - sex dolls. You might not
think anything could top that until this article uncovers
something even worse - child sex dolls. Makes you wonder
if the ancient Romans had sex dolls to play with just before
the vandals arrived and slaughtered them.

https://www.news.com.au/entertainmen...279e9061e7aafd

[Vern Humphrey]

The idea that Rome fell due to immorality is a myth propagated by Gibbons. Rome fell because of unlimited immigration -- the barbarians swept across the borders and eventually turned Rome into a barbarian nation.

[dogtag]

The idea that Rome fell due to immorality is a myth propagated by Gibbons. Rome fell because of unlimited immigration -- the barbarians swept across the borders and eventually turned Rome into a barbarian nation.

The Romans debased the coinage by adding base metals.
I'd call that immoral. What would you call it ?

[Vern Humphrey]

The Romans debased the coinage by adding base metals.
I'd call that immoral. What would you call it ?

Yeah, but that's just government in general -- look at US coins. Can you remember when dimes and quarters used to be solid silver?

[togor]

The idea that Rome fell due to immorality is a myth propagated by Gibbons. Rome fell because of unlimited immigration -- the barbarians swept across the borders and eventually turned Rome into a barbarian nation.

Who pushed those barbarians west into Europe? I've read Gibbon (no s) and your summary doesn't come close to capturing his thesis.

[dogtag]

Yeah, but that's just government in general -- look at US coins. Can you remember when dimes and quarters used to be solid silver?

Yes, I have lots of them.

[clintonhater]

Who pushed those barbarians west into Europe?

Other, more desperate, barbarians of course; their alien beliefs & lifestyle simply submerged Roman culture.

[dryheat]

There's no end of barbarians no matter what the time span.

[Vern Humphrey]

And there's a whole caravan of them headed for our border.

[M1Tommy]

Opiates and other drugs were legal in the 1800s.
Prostitution was not uncommon at all in those years either.
The beat rolls on, and nothing is forever.
This, JMO,
Tommy

[Vern Humphrey]

Which is why I point out that morality is not what brought down the Roman Empire. It was waves of immigrants that toppled the whole structure.

[togor]

The Roman ruling class found the newcomers a convenient source of military material. That implies some evolution of cultural beliefs. Gibbon ultimately and persuasively ties it to the inability of the Roman Senate to function in its original deliberate capacity, relying instead on the strong executive. They didn't go down without a struggle, and at times capable leaders emerged which favorably reversed the decline of the empire for a generation or more. Vernon's thesis at best gives a proximal cause but doesn't touch the underlying issues.

[blackhawknj]

As long as debauchers are supported by the government.....

[clintonhater]

The Roman ruling class found the newcomers a convenient source of military material. That implies some evolution of cultural beliefs.

But rarely to the extent of cutting their long hair! Though they longed to posses Roman luxury goods, & aped many aspects of the Roman lifestyle, their "Romanization" never grew beyond the superficial; core Roman beliefs like the importance of law & "building for the future" were values beyond barbarian comprehension.

[togor]

But rarely to the extent of cutting their long hair! Though they longed to posses Roman luxury goods, & aped many aspects of the Roman lifestyle, their "Romanization" never grew beyond the superficial; core Roman beliefs like the importance of law & "building for the future" were values beyond barbarian comprehension.

Point missed. What was meant by my observation was that the Romans found it easier over time to give the scutwork like military service to people from the edges of the empire, who were decidedly of a different ethic and cultural line. That says something about the Romans which is contrary to Vern's thesis. The overrunning of the frontiers which led to the eventual sacking of Rome was the culmination of a long decline. All things considered they did extraordinarily well to last as long as they did. And a thousand years later, the best roads in western Europe were still the ones layed down in Roman times.