The sound of the guns - then the silence. (end of WW1)

[togor]

Back then the USA didn't believe in a paying for a large standing army. Bond drives were needed to generate the funds on an almost pay-as-you-go basis. Today we just bill future generations for the cost of high tech junk like the LCS and F-35. A much better solution? They would disagree.

[JB White]

If it hadn't been for the M1917 -- a rechambered British P13, we would have never been able to arm our troops in time..

*ahem* The M1917 is actually a redesigned Pattern 14. The .276 P13 never advanced beyond prototype and trials with about 2,500 having been built for that purpose. There is very little critical parts interchangeability between the P14 and M17 rifles. The M17's have shorter 'ears' than the P14 as a result due to the cartridge lengths involved.

However your point was we needed rifles pronto and yesterday and it was indeed a problem. Turned out to be several times quicker to modify the existing Limey design than it would have been to retool 3 entire plants for 1903's.

That emergency refit is what prevented those same makers and others from producing British rifles during WW2. Savage was the only gunmaker granted permission to accept a British private contract. (which ended up being covered retroactively under Lend Lease)

[JohnPeeff]

American troops fought at various times with the SMLE, Lebel, Nagant, and trained with Krags.

[JB White]

I was aware the SMLE and Lebel were used by Yanks in combat, but was under the impression the Westinghouse Nagants were only used rear echelon and in training. Only having owned a single Nagant for a relatively short while, I never delved into their history.

[Vern Humphrey]

I was aware the SMLE and Lebel were used by Yanks in combat, but was under the impression the Westinghouse Nagants were only used rear echelon and in training. Only having owned a single Nagant for a relatively short while, I never delved into their history.

American troops sent to Russia after the war were armed with Nagants.


Note: The P13 was the original Mauser-based rifle designed at Enfield and chambered for a .280 caliber cartridge modeled on the .280 Ross. The British decided not to change horses in mid-stream, and stuck with the SMLE when they entered WWI. The P13 was brought to America and manufactured by three American plants -- but in .303 Enfield. When the US entered the war, those plants were just winding up their contract, and they rechambered (and made other slight modifications) to produce the rifle in .30-06. It still retained the characteristics of the P13 -- including the enlarged magazine.

[JB White]

American troops sent to Russia after the war were armed with Nagants.


Note: The P13 was the original Mauser-based rifle designed at Enfield and chambered for a .280 caliber cartridge modeled on the .280 Ross. The British decided not to change horses in mid-stream, and stuck with the SMLE when they entered WWI. The P13 was brought to America and manufactured by three American plants -- but in .303 Enfield. When the US entered the war, those plants were just winding up their contract, and they rechambered (and made other slight modifications) to produce the rifle in .30-06. It still retained the characteristics of the P13 -- including the enlarged magazine.

Thanks for that first part regarding the poison maggots...er, Mosin Nagants

Here we go again.....The P13 didn't come to America. It was the P14, the P13's successor, produced by Vickers who couldn't meet the sudden demand.
I collect British, Vern. All those individual pattern, number, mark, and star things all mean something important to me

Oh, 276 vs 280...it all depends on who is doing the measuring. Lands or grooves. Bullet vs bore diameter. Yanks and Brits aren't on the same page.

[Vern Humphrey]

Thanks for that first part regarding the poison maggots...er, Mosin Nagants

Here we go again.....The P13 didn't come to America. It was the P14, the P13's successor, produced by Vickers who couldn't meet the sudden demand.
I collect British, Vern. All those individual pattern, number, mark, and star things all mean something important to me

Oh, 276 vs 280...it all depends on who is doing the measuring. Lands or grooves. Bullet vs bore diameter. Yanks and Brits aren't on the same page.

I stand corrected.

[JB White]

I stand corrected.

Don't fret it. I was once a victim of poor gun writing and gun show myths in that regard too.

[Vern Humphrey]

Here's one for you; The insignia of the Infantry is "crossed rifles" -- actually nowadays it's "crossed muskets" -- the musket in question being the Model 1795. But at one time, it was always the issue rifle. When we changed rifles, we changed insignia.

If you go to the Infantry Center at Fort Benning, GA, there is a mosaic of the insignia in the floor at the entrance to the Officer's Club -- and the rifles depicted are M1917s.