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This woman gets dumber by the minute!
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Well, it's no surprise she hasn't studied the New Testament. Remember if you will, last month she claimed being a Puerto Rican Jew.2016 Chicago Cubs. MLB Champions!
**Never quite as old as the other old farts** -
At the time, Jesus was a baby. His illegal parents brought him across to circumvent US law(if your going to just make up sh***).If I should die before I wake...great,a little more sleep.Comment
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A refugee is generally defined as a person who is fleeing to escape war, persecution or a natural disaster.
Under that definition she is actually correct. Jesus' family was running from the threat of Herod the Great to kill him for political reasons when they fled with him to Egypt. On the other hand...the idea that he and his family were "illegally" in Egypt while they were there was almost surely false.
This is the same woman, though, who has a minor in economics and doesn't know the difference between job numbers and unemployment rate. In fact she's been wrong so much when it comes to this area of her area of supposed expertise that even liberal friendly outlets like Politifact and The Washington Post regularly call her out on it.
The proof that even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.Last edited by Art; 12-26-2018, 05:13.Comment
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Well....it's been a long time since I've been called a liberal.
The Roman Empire was a mixture of independent vassal states (Judea) and provinces under direct Roman control (Egypt) at the time Jesus was born. Judea didn't become a Roman Province with a Roman Prefect (Coponius) and a Roman garrison until A.D. 6, a couple of years after Herod the Great died. This only occurred because of gross mismanagement by his successor(s.) It was only then that Romans took over direct control and split it up.
Egypt, on the other hand, became a Roman province with a Roman governor and a Roman Legion stationed in it in 36 B.C. The fact is that Herod had no authority in Egypt, none, nor would the Roman Prefect in Egypt had any interest or authority in Judea. Any meddling in Judea would have had to come directly from Rome and only if there was some large problem worthy of the attention of the Emperor himself. At the time Rome had minimal interest in what Herod did as long as the peace was kept and the tribute paid. It was a system somewhat, but not exactly similar to the status of East Germany or Cuba compared to The Ukraine or Belarus in the old Soviet Empire.
If the Roman Empire was like The United States Jesus and his family would not have been any safer in Egypt than a fugitive from Texas would have been in Missouri. Many independent nation states in antiquity had no real restrictions on travel in and out as long as the new folks behaved and obeyed the rules, ancient Israel being a prime example. In fact the Law of Moses required the ancient Hebrews to welcome the stranger including fugitive slaves. One of the few ancient countries that had anything like what we would consider an immigration system with a set of immigration laws was classical Athens which had an system quite similar in some ways to ours. The Bible is full of individual family groups, even whole tribes, moving in and out of various kingdoms with no problems at all as long as they behaved and weren't seen as a threat to the current authority. Abraham moved all over the near and middle east, from one country to another, with absolute impunity.
Technically Joseph was a step parent, at least if you're an orthodox (note the "small "o") Christian. One of the slanders on Jesus in his day and after was that he was born of fornication which was not true of course since he had no biological father.
Folks will tend to confuse their politics with their religion. I have a very good and very conservative friend who just came to an epiphany on that with regard to the legal system.Last edited by Art; 12-27-2018, 01:25.Comment
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How is that relevant? There were no barriers to travel between countries in those days -- no such thing as a visa or passport. Therefore the Holy Family could not be "illegal immigrants."
And note that the gospels are adamant that Jesus was of the House of David, through Joseph. Regardless of modern ideas on the subject, Joseph WAS Jesus' father under the customs of the time. Remember the Levirate requirement that a man marry his brother's widow and raise up children for his brother? Direct biological descent was secondary to the Law.Comment
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Since God created the entire world and Jesus is the Son of God, doesn't it make sense that Jesus owns everything in sight? I didn't create my soul, it was given to me a gift from God.
SamComment
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Well, it's relevant because you made a point of it. I'm talking about the clear definition of what is, or is not a Refugee. The fact that it was easier to cross borders doesn't change the fact that the definition of a refugee is a person fleeing his homeland because its become unlivable for some reason. Currently the general rule is a person fleeing oppression or catastrophe should seek shelter in the closest safe country. I doubt the thousands of Syrians sheltering in Jordan or the Afghans in Pakistan have passports either. All those Central Americans who came up in that "caravan" are now in what amounts to refugee camps in Mexico, though, unlike those Syrians or Afghans they generally don't really fit the definition of refugee.
I believe I was explicit that the holy family were not illegal immigrants but if I did not make myself clear on that I am now.
It is true that in 1st Century Judea as a standard the child of a widow by her brother was accepted legally as his child. I don't see the relevance of that here though. As an aside, polygamy was illegal everywhere in the Roman empire except in Judea which was exempted by special Imperial proclamation, and Levirate marriage sometimes involved polygamy if the brothers of the dead fellow were all married. The Judeans were also exempt several other Roman legal requirements like emperor worship/veneration for that reason coins struck in Judea did not carry the image of the Emperor or any Imperial image and Roman soldiers stationed there usually did not march behind their standards. In Judea betrothal was equivalent to marriage and as such a divorce was required to break an engagement. This is the reason Mary was referred to as Joseph's "betrothed" when Jesus was born. It was considered bad form, but not a huge deal, to "squeeze the charmin" before the formal wedding and supervision usually, though not always, prevented it. Joseph's problem wasn't that Mary was pregnant but that he knew it wasn't his. Due to the differences in the two genealogies (Matthew and Luke) there are scholars who believe that Jesus was David's descendant both through Mary (directly, Luke) and Joseph ( by adoption Matthew.) For me, that's above my pay grade and unimportant.
Of course this sort of academic exercise is irrelevant to the big picture because S.A. Boggs is correct on the "big picture" level. Everything that happened was part of the plan.Last edited by Art; 12-27-2018, 11:38.Comment
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From this starting point it is a shorter path to a position of welcoming fellow Christians who arrive at our southern border than it is to one of building a wall to keep some children of God separate from others. I have always viewed border enforcement as one of those things that we feel strongly about doing in this world, but which won't get us any points in the next.Comment
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It is one thing to welcome those who will take care of self, not to do for self. Our Deacons get many requests, many are not acted upon which makes the person furious. Just because we are a "Christian" church doesn't mean we help everyone. Did you ever hear of the Pearly Gates to Heaven and none for Hell?
SamComment
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Yes, but if one is going to state that Jesus owns everything, then it's a crap shoot to assert that one is doing as Jesus wants at any given moment. Some therefore choose to err on the side of "yes" as opposed to "no" where they can, and most Christians would assume that mercy should be shown to a Honduran woman with her child, showing up dirty and careworn at the border. Mercy, not bullets, as some suggest. My point is that this is just going to be handled as a civil matter, and it's best not to kid ourselves that the Lord's Will is for a humongous wall that won't stop the #1 form of illegal immigration (visa overstays) anyways.Last edited by togor; 12-27-2018, 12:56.Comment
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