Background checks

[lyman]

Lyman,

I know what I'm doing. Ask yourself: what's the legitimate societal objective? What tools are available to achieve it? And also: what are the real costs?

People will inject their worst fears into this topic, but if one thinks about it from a business perspective, it looks different. I have some collectible guns, and if it's a choice between regulated ownership of them, allowing me to recoup my investment at a later time, and a termination of that market, well it's an easy choice. We all know what the sticking point is to fully regulated gun transactions, this idea that if the government has to validate every transaction, then out of that they can develop a database of who owns what. But let's get real. The next generation lets everything in their lives get logged anyways. They have no fear of a totalitarian state using all of this data. Maybe they should, but they don't. That's something the old people talk about in their eyes. Give every gun a 15 digit code of letters and numbers, randomized and with integrity digits in them so that a single missed digit maps to an invalid code. Everytime that gun changes hands, the buyer gets a background check, and the ID of the gun is logged. Lost or stolen? File a report online. If anything, such a system would be a boon to FFLs, who act as service providers on every transaction.

as passionate as you are over global climate change warming, you are a fatalist on gun control?

and you address none of the issues mentioned,


Blackhawk and Vern are correct,

the weakness in the system is the folks that input the data in the system,

in your world, we just need to give up our rights for the greater good? and because the youth of today is ok with it just roll over?




and not a boon to FFL's, actually a bit of a PITA sometimes,

and Va, (no idea of other states) will do a background check for you, just contact VSP

[togor]

The weakness in any system is data entry. That weakness exists today, including for guns. Is the proposal to throw away 4473s because of the possibility of bad data? Is that your recommendation, Lyman?

Subtle point perhaps, but I'm addressing the claim that it's impossible to close loopholes in the gun trade. I'm pointing out that as a practical matter, for what tech is available today, we haven't really tried. That's not an endorsement, just an observation. Also pointing out that today's youth are tomorrow's policymakers and so what happens in 20 years may reflect their sensibilities more than yours or mine.

As for gun control and climate change. The scope of these two things is not the same. Climate change is existential threat. If we change nothing in gun laws we'll keep muddling through just fine. If some gun laws change, not too much, I predict we'll still be okay.

[lyman]

no, the 4473 system has worked well for Traces, (what it was basically designed for)

my thoughts are we do what we (as a collective group) can to get the data correct, up to date, and in in a timely manner,

the left has always pushed for more,, more, more,, with out acknowledging or address what failures there may have been, or improvements (reasonable, not totalitarian) could be made,
just the desire for more more more,

and you are preaching from their hymn book,,


the ''gunshow loophole'' is a lie,, always has been,

and you give a person a thing, they will figure out a way to trade, barter etc that thing for something else,, would you shut down all commerce as well??

[Sandpebble]

New Laws ... old crimes

So nobody has stepped forward to tell us how many past mass shootings would be avoided with the new laws....

The answer is NONE.

Tough question there Red ... what about the retard that shot up Sandy Hook ?

Well thats right... even though he had " Probs" his Mother purchased those firearms legally. A few years ago the NRA Rifleman magazine published a letter stating that back ground checks were a waste as most gun crimes were commited by those with stolen guns..... or guns supplied by friends or family .

I think the law should state that the Mother of Lanza serves big jail time .

But the big question is .... how long do we continue to ignore the problem ? ....

.... we all better come to realize some cold hard facts.... eventually at this rate, the non gun owning family members of deceased will out vote us.

and gee... now its time to talk mental health . Bring back a rescinded Obama law and claim it as our own ?

[togor]

Lyman, I hope I'm right and you're wrong, for the simple reason that if we can't put a dent in gun crime, especially the spectacular ones that don't happen on the bad side of town, then society will conclude it's the guns themselves that are the problem, and that the antis are right. In case you haven't noticed, the trends are not going our way. Among other things we learned in El Paso (credit to Art for pointing this out), good guys with guns didn't get it done. Sometimes they definitely do but often they don't. And the assailant usually moves first and scores first. Are gun owners prepared to foot the bill for all of the mental hospitals and prisons that are to be built so that we can keep the gun regs to a minimum? Somehow I don't see that happening. We don't live in 1950 anymore, whether that comes as good news or bad.

[lyman]

Lyman, I hope I'm right and you're wrong, for the simple reason that if we can't put a dent in gun crime, especially the spectacular ones that don't happen on the bad side of town, then society will conclude it's the guns themselves that are the problem, and that the antis are right. In case you haven't noticed, the trends are not going our way. Among other things we learned in El Paso (credit to Art for pointing this out), good guys with guns didn't get it done. Sometimes they definitely do but often they don't. And the assailant usually moves first and scores first. Are gun owners prepared to foot the bill for all of the mental hospitals and prisons that are to be built so that we can keep the gun regs to a minimum? Somehow I don't see that happening. We don't live in 1950 anymore, whether that comes as good news or bad.

with respect, you are glossing this over a bit,

not looking deep enough,,


mental health,, it was an issue when society locked every one up, thru away the key, and did some unsavory acts in the sanitariums,


then the renaissance of mental health care and now no one can mention, etc etc, HIPPA etc etc,,


Pebbles mentioned Lanza,, and yes, his mom bought the firearms, but the law says no to straw purchases, but yes to gifts and buying for kids, spouses etc,, another fine line that needs to be examined?
if she lived, prosecute her, but not lil jimmy's grandpa for buying him a 22?




so folks now fall thru the cracks, mental health wise, but that is ok,,,


cause we just took all the firearms from everyone,,

[m1ashooter]

What's changed is Big Data. If Amazon has every purchase someone made since 2003 or whatever, getting every gun transaction into the system going forward would not be beyond reach of modern tech. So it's not a question if drawing a fairly bright line between legal and illegal guns is possible or practical. From an informatics perspective, it surely is.

Amazon is Amazon and the state and federal gov't don't operate like a business. So is my doctor going to input into a federal data base the fact that I'm taking a drug that he prescribed that might make me a mass murder? I doubt it, or what happens to a person if a data entry person makes a key stroke error or the system gets hacked and innocent people names get added to a no buy list. I guess you trust the state and federal gov't to get this right more then me. Its broke now.

[lyman]

Amazon is Amazon and the state and federal gov't don't operate like a business. So is my doctor going to input into a federal data base the fact that I'm taking a drug that he prescribed that might make me a mass murder? I doubt it, or what happens to a person if a data entry person makes a key stroke error or the system gets hacked and innocent people names get added to a no buy list. I guess you trust the state and federal gov't to get this right more then me. Its broke now.

my point,,


I had a sale one night,

guy gets delayed,

then in process, (rarely good)

then a call, is Mr John Doe still there,,

Police show up,, and seems Mr. Doe is innocent,, his brother had stolen his Identity,,



this kinda thing will happen, but it will be relatively rare

- - - Updated - - -

But Allen he can buy a gun from someone who did.

who did what?,, steal a gun,,

yes, and so can you

- - - Updated - - -

So nobody has stepped forward to tell us how many past mass shootings would be avoided with the new laws....

The answer is NONE.

got one better for you RED,,

no one would have been stopped with both any new law,, or the old ones,,

[lyman]

A good point about the alcohol but someone with restrictions could always get someone to buy it for them or just take it or drink it in someone's home who has alcohol. A while back Red posted a thread about stills on ebay and noted that on some of the listings they claimed to have sold hundreds of that one particular model and if you check there are many listings plus a person can make one from scratch. This would not only be hard to track but one person who makes whiskey sells to others regardless of restrictions.

Background checks are already done on gun purchases but I think all they check is your record, not if you're a nutcase or something. Thing is some of these cases where a mentally disturbed person goes off the deep end has a clean record up to that point so background checks are not always that useful. A person who intends to commit a crime and use a gun doing it can most always obtain one by stealing one, even if it is from a police car.

In short, about the only sure way to keep someone from obtaining and consuming alcohol is to sew their mouths close---the Gaddafi way.
To keep someone from obtaining and shooting a weapon of any kind---cut their hands off---also the Gaddafi way.

With overpopulation, diversity, vagrance, open borders, corrupt judges, lack of parenting skills, absence of the family and most of all lack of enforcements of our laws, we will always have crime with increasing numbers till things change.

Background checks primarily check out the law abiding consumers. A person with a record isn't going to be making a gun purchase at a gun shop.

you are correct,


alcohol,, I was able to buy beer when I was 18, but could easily get likker (21 age limit)

ditto when I was under 18,,



as far as background going wrong,, for the buyer,

the company I work for (day job) gets an avg of about one a month, ,
denied, or arrested,

as far as my company (brother and I continued my fathers business)

one, many many years ago


yep, one guy,

called in a sale from him,

police says, can you delay him until we get there, we need to pick him up,,

I say, hold on a second,,

Hey, Wade,, want another drink?? Wade says yes, so bring it I tell the person in the Firearms Transaction Office,,

VSP showed up about 20 minutes later and took him off for some failure to show up for court,, he was out and still firearms eligible the next day,

and yes, then our smail shop had an open bar, as long as you opened the fridge or bottle,,,


I had a couple traces back then,, and one with our new FFL

[togor]

Amazon is Amazon and the state and federal gov't don't operate like a business. So is my doctor going to input into a federal data base the fact that I'm taking a drug that he prescribed that might make me a mass murder? I doubt it, or what happens to a person if a data entry person makes a key stroke error or the system gets hacked and innocent people names get added to a no buy list. I guess you trust the state and federal gov't to get this right more then me. Its broke now.

Valid questions. Personally I would be strongly opposed to such a system. It's bad enough these days with electronic medical records. Also why I think a system that tracks transactions *might* be easier for gun owners to swallow. The mental health angle looks promising from a distance, when presumably the target is someone else.

[lyman]

going back to the ATF,


each time a FFL\SOT is inspected, an inventory is done,

the 01 part is easy, bound book is checked against what you have physically in inventory, (usually a couple guys do this, one looking in the book, one calling out make\model\serial)

then the NFA part (for the SOT folks) is done,

now, the serial numbers etc were just checked with the rest of the stuff, but the ATF folks also have a separate list from the NFA branch,

that list is not always correct, and even after it was corrected last audit (2-3 yrs prior) it is still not correct,

my last audit they had 5 NFA items that I was supposed to have in inventory,, yet were not even on my FFL\SOT,,,

meaning the registry (ATF's) was that off,


with eFile it has gotten better (all my inventory shows in eFile, and no other) however the descriptions are not always correct,

sold a M16 recently that had the maker and other parts of the descriptors (Serial was correct) all wrong, compared to the original form 4's and 3's I had from previous transfers on that gun,,,


my point, ,

the same folks (government workers, contractors )that input that data in the registry, would also be inputting the data in NICS,, for the personal records,,,