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[barretcreek]

We're in a permanent coup

My discomfort in the last few years, first with Russiagate and now with Ukrainegate and impeachment, stems from the belief that the people pushing hardest for Trump’s early removal are more dangerous than Trump. Many Americans don’t see this because they’re not used to waking up in a country where you’re not sure who the president will be by nightfall. They don’t understand that this predicament is worse than having a bad president.

The Trump presidency is the first to reveal a full-blown schism between the intelligence community and the White House. Senior figures in the CIA, NSA, FBI and other agencies made an open break from their would-be boss before Trump’s inauguration, commencing a public war of leaks that has not stopped.

Need to post the link.

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/were-in-a-permanent-coup

[togor]

Nah. Trump wants to be a dictator, running the government as if it's his own personal property. People who feel it's their government too take issue and so there is a fight. I grew up in an era where the dangers of dictatorship were understood and so for me, like many many others, this is an easy call. Trump has to go and whomever replaces him has to work with Congress and the courts to repair the damage. In theory it could be Democrats or Republicans, but too many Republicans have gone out of their way to accommodate Trump so realistically there has to be a de-Trumpification of the GOP before it can be trusted with power.

[lyman]

Nah. Trump wants to be a dictator, running the government as if it's his own personal property. People who feel it's their government too take issue and so there is a fight. I grew up in an era where the dangers of dictatorship were understood and so for me, like many many others, this is an easy call. Trump has to go and whomever replaces him has to work with Congress and the courts to repair the damage. In theory it could be Democrats or Republicans, but too many Republicans have gone out of their way to accommodate Trump so realistically there has to be a de-Trumpification of the GOP before it can be trusted with power.

the folks Barrettcreek mentioned started a lot of this mess before Trump was sworn in as President,

are you assuming they assumed he would want to be a dictator?

[togor]

the folks Barrettcreek mentioned started a lot of this mess before Trump was sworn in as President,

are you assuming they assumed he would want to be a dictator?

Before Trump it was understood that there were bureaucracies in the government with entrenched views that could make it tough for any newcomer to get things changed quickly. (There can be advantages to that but this is a topic for another thread.) Other Presidents complained about it but it wasn't until Trump came along that it was politically weaponized to become the "deep state trying to destroy Trump and stage a coup against him."

My explanation is simpler and more consistent with observable facts. Trump ran a family-owned business in a sector known for bare-knuckled combat and skeevy characters. He brings that ethos to the Oval Office because that's all he knows. Since that model is so radically divergent from what has served in that office previously, he's having all manner of troubles.

The "deep state" didn't create Paul Manafort, Rudy Giuliani, or the transcript of that call to Ukraine. It's not just the "deep state" that has a problem with Trump using the power of the office for blatant private gain.

[lyman]

Before Trump it was understood that there were bureaucracies in the government with entrenched views that could make it tough for any newcomer to get things changed quickly. (There can be advantages to that but this is a topic for another thread.) Other Presidents complained about it but it wasn't until Trump came along that it was politically weaponized to become the "deep state trying to destroy Trump and stage a coup against him."

My explanation is simpler and more consistent with observable facts. Trump ran a family-owned business in a sector known for bare-knuckled combat and skeevy characters. He brings that ethos to the Oval Office because that's all he knows. Since that model is so radically divergent from what has served in that office previously, he's having all manner of troubles.

The "deep state" didn't create Paul Manafort, Rudy Giuliani, or the transcript of that call to Ukraine. It's not just the "deep state" that has a problem with Trump using the power of the office for blatant private gain.

this I think we can all agree,

the rest not so sure,

he was fighting an uphill battle because the folks in charge were expecting hillary to be the next anointed one, and once that passed, I would not put it past her, her cronies, or obama's people to toss as many wrenches in the works as possible,

[dogtag]

You might want to read what the AG Barr has to say on the subject:


https://clashdaily.com/2019/10/ag-ba...essive-agenda/

[barretcreek]

Togor,

You are suggesting the mandarins are neutral, their mantra 'make decisions with the Constitution in mind'. NFW. Power without accountability is the goal. Trump took on the intel spooks before he even had the nomination as a group which is a threat to the nation and needs to be brought under control.
They are proving him correct.

[jgaynor]

Togor,

You are suggesting the mandarins are neutral, their mantra 'make decisions with the Constitution in mind'. NFW. Power without accountability is the goal. Trump took on the intel spooks before he even had the nomination as a group which is a threat to the nation and needs to be brought under control.
They are proving him correct.

Nonsence! Trump made it known he could not be bothered to read even a brief intelligence report. Not could he be bothered to properly staff up his new government or our embassies overseas. Trump is a horses ass.

[Sandpebble]

Nonsence! Trump made it known he could not be bothered to read even a brief intelligence report. Not could he be bothered to properly staff up his new government or our embassies overseas. Trump is a horses ass.

jgaynor is spot on here with the fact that Trump couldn't be bothered with intelligence reports ... he seemed to boast that fact .

Trump ridiculed the intelligence and law enforcement communities from the get go.... meaning prior election.

It has always been my belief that hge did that because he knew that they would .... know things .

The CIA FBI and NSA career people have spent their working lives in defense of the United States .... I stand with them.

I'm not going to let some Johnny come lately real estate tycoon convince me they are the bad guys... and if you do... well shame on you

[togor]

Togor,

You are suggesting the mandarins are neutral, their mantra 'make decisions with the Constitution in mind'. NFW. Power without accountability is the goal. Trump took on the intel spooks before he even had the nomination as a group which is a threat to the nation and needs to be brought under control.
They are proving him correct.

Bunch of assumptions there. Sure there are experts in different government departments, but so what? A good executive understands how to harness the expertise at their disposal. Trump comes from a mom-and-pop operation and as other posters have said, shows little use for intel. We can make many guesses as to why. Sandpebble may be on to something, that Trump worries they have (in his way of thinking) leverage on him because he's been into some sh*t that they know about.

More broadly, if our spooks are doing it wrong, then do what they did after 9/11 and go to Congress for a re-org. But that's not what we're getting out of Trump or you guys. It's b*tching that the spooks aren't personally loyal to Trump. Well why on earth would we want that? Who wants the secret police working the personal agenda of the executive? NKVD, KGB, Gestapo, Stasi, DINA, SSD, the list goes on.

The narrative is that the spooks have opposed Trump from the get-go. Really? What policy have they undermined and how? I'm reminded of this Leslie Stahl quote recounting a Trump interview:

“At one point, he started to attack the press,” Stahl said. “There were no cameras in there.”

“I said, ‘You know, this is getting tired. Why are you doing it over and over? It’s boring and it’s time to end that. You know, you’ve won ... why do you keep hammering at this?’” Stahl recalled.

“And he said: ‘You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so that when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you.’”