How did the Gun Grabbers win in Virginia ? ...

[togor]

I don't lose sleep at night yet about kits, but it is a number's game. If at some point the small loophole becomes a big one, this issue will come back. For the half-answers received that don't specifically engage my question (about the harm of putting SNs on kits and requiring background checks, to weed out minors, illegal immigrants and felons), my read is that keeping SNs off of kits is probably not a hill upon which people are prepared to die. If they took the bump stock ban without a murmur, they'll take this too.

[togor]

Agree.

That's why our prisons are bursting at the seams and early releases granted. Our laws that are on the books aren't enforced enough. Capitol punishment should come automatically where the crime and evidence agree. Our prisons should be empty or near empty instead of overflowing. People should be scared to be arrested and jailed instead of it being considered just an occupational hazard. Felons should all do the time for the crime.

Some live for decades on death row and die in prison instead of being dealt with.

A crime is a crime. The liberals and news media try to brainwash that all crimes relate to the gun.

A few gun / criminal facts of which some people are clearly not aware.

1. Firearms can kill at a distance more effectively and with less skill required than just about anything else of which one can think.

2. Criminals understand that firepower matters as clearly as any tactical wannabe or genuine LEO.

3. New criminals are being made all of the time.

4. A strategy of emptying prisons wholesale via the loading dock has no public support. Even Trump understands that much.

This is reality.

[Gun Smoke]

1. A lot of things can kill at a distance. Various bombs, disease, cars, trains, planes. A crime is a crime. Period

2. Spoken like one himself. They can always have that little play pretty taken away from them. Guns aren't for criminals, minors and illegals. Yes, we have laws on the books

3. New criminals do NOT have to be made all the time. The fears of what they SHOULD expect from being placed in jail should make them turn away.

4. Only you could misread and screw this one up. No one said or implied emptying the jails. That's what democrats do for votes. I'm implying the time should fit the crime including mandatory capitol punishment in some cases. For would-be felons jail should be a place NO one wants to go to. Get rid of the A/C's, heat, TV's and make them work. No more early paroles or time off for good behavior. Good behavior is to be expected. Time should be added though for bad behavior.

A life sentence should be that. Death row shouldn't exist (bang).

For the most part "crime pays". If people knew their sentences would not be reduced many would never commit crimes. Over time the prisons would or should become way less crowded due to lack of interest in being a guest there.

[lyman]

I don't lose sleep at night yet about kits, but it is a number's game. If at some point the small loophole becomes a big one, this issue will come back. For the half-answers received that don't specifically engage my question (about the harm of putting SNs on kits and requiring background checks, to weed out minors, illegal immigrants and felons), my read is that keeping SNs off of kits is probably not a hill upon which people are prepared to die. If they took the bump stock ban without a murmur, they'll take this too.

think about it this way,

way back before 1968 we had no serial numbers on a lot of firearms,

that changed partially do to some bad folks that did bad things to a President, Religious leader, and a President's brother, (and maybe others)



That act did some good, and also restricted a lot of rights to normal law abiding folks,
some were fixed in 1986, one in particular made worse,,


so,

fast forward 30+ years, and we are still in the same boat,

same boat as in 'let's pass a law banning or restricting something' vs actually looking at the problem objectively and fixing it,


why is that??


people kill people, been doing that since people came into existence,

if you break down the demographics (race, wealth, locale, etc etc) you see where the damage is done,
you also use the same data and see what it was done with,


simple math says that those items that folks want to ban are not used with any regularity in the crimes committed,

so we spend money to figure this out,, ignore the results cause they don't make us feel good, and then pass some restriction that makes everyone feel better,


thing is, not every one feels better, just the folks that think they are enlightened (and usually are not)


bump stocks, feel good legislation,
banning imports of milsurps (GCA 1968) feel good legislation overturned in 1986
assault weapons bans, feel good, (did nothing for crime)
mag capacity limits,, feel good,


so,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sigh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,, instead of beating this dead horse cause it feels good, why not pull back on the reigns, look at the issues that cause the problems and address those?


novel thought , I know


look at this (not a half answer,, maybe an analogy?)

smoking is a leading cause of health problems,
vaping is apparently thee same,

so, in order to help curb the medical issues including death,
each vape device needs to be registered,
each pipe, cigar, cigarette as well

each refill needs to be sold thru a licensed dealer,


would that stop vaping or smoking?

there is already an age limit, what is a litte extra?


ditto alcohol, would that help?


don't reply back 'hur dur cars are registered', since we already know that is not a right, but a privilege,

[Gun Smoke]

Bought a new Remington Nylon 66 sometime around 1966. Bought it at cost @ $35. Still have it along with the box.

It was made with no serial number and it hasn't killed or "assaulted" anyone yet, even at long distances.

[lyman]

Bought a new Remington Nylon 66 sometime around 1966. Bought it at cost @ $35. Still have it along with the box.

It was made with no serial number and it hasn't killed or "assaulted" anyone yet, even at long distances.

somewhere, someone is offended,

so you need to destroy that gun now, before a 2nd or 3rd person is offended,

you know it will make you and the rest of the folks like togor feel better,,


it's all about the feels,


[/sarcasm]
[/maybe humor]

[togor]

Gun Smoke, I read your post, you should read mine. You'll empty the prisons "at the loading dock" by executing those who dwell within. Thereafter they're empty...just hang the convicted from a wall for public view, right? With such swift and stern justice, everyone will feel free to express themselves and disagree with the government. And no official will ever throw an opponent under the swiftly rolling wheels of justice, will they. Sounds like a real Utopia you got there.

It's wholly disingenuous for gun guys, especially those with CCL, to argue that firearms don't make criminals more dangerous. They do. And a real Conservative isn't afraid to admit that. A faux conservative is.

[lyman]

It's wholly disingenuous for gun guys, especially those with CCL, to argue that firearms don't make criminals more dangerous. They do. And a real Conservative isn't afraid to admit that. A faux conservative is.

that is not what you proposed earlier,

a criminal with a knife, garden hoe, car, or even a pencil is dangerous,

that is what a criminal is,


only a real democrat would make that kind of statement

[togor]

Conservatives don't hide from facts. At least the kind that raised me. Elsewhere, different story, I agree.

Firepower matters. Who has it, who doesn't, for what purpose. We can use law of the jungle to regulate firepower, or laws of civilization. One way or the other, firepower is regulated.

[lyman]

Conservatives don't hide from facts. At least the kind that raised me. Elsewhere, different story, I agree.

Firepower matters. Who has it, who doesn't, for what purpose. We can use law of the jungle to regulate firepower, or laws of civilization. One way or the other, firepower is regulated.

let me put it this way,

Gunsmoke goes rogue, takes his Apache he got way back when and robs the local 7-11

police involved, get called to scene, he gets arrested, sits in jail until the trial , hopefully the facts will let convict, and put in jail,
Gunsmoke serves his sentence, gun is confiscated as evidence,

film at 11, guy robs store, get arrested, next story

that would be the conservative point,, guy messed up, held accountable, punished, end of story

a liberal would do the same, as far as the police,

however they would have a picture of a glock or AR up on the screen talking about how gunsmoke went on a deadly bender
3 seconds on the case, 10 minutes on the rampant gun violence in the city, what are we gonna do,

guns bad, lets ask mayor (a D) etc etc,

big op\ed in the local paper about deadly high caliber assault fully semi automatics,

gunsmoke meanwhile, gets a liberal judge, is put in a program, and out on the street , since he was a confused person, maybe abused as a child, etc etc

that is the non conservative reality

if laws were enforced, policing done better, society and folks of a different culture , etc etc, did what was right, as in raise the kids right, hold folks accountable etc etc, then a lot of issues would be non existent,


your fear of firepower, and perceptions of who has it and who abuses it are based on an agenda,, and not a conservative one,

[togor]

It's not a fear of firepower, it's a recognition of what it can do. No different than the guys who carry every time they go into town. I won't ask you if you carry, and you won't ask me. But I will tell you that recognizing the relevance of something (in this case firepower) and being afraid of it are two different things.

But if someone has no intention of ever looking at gun issues except through the lens of dogma, then yeah, sure, firepower doesn't matter at the level of critical thinking, just at the fear level, for which there is CC.

[lyman]

It's not a fear of firepower, it's a recognition of what it can do. No different than the guys who carry every time they go into town. I won't ask you if you carry, and you won't ask me. But I will tell you that recognizing the relevance of something (in this case firepower) and being afraid of it are two different things.

But if someone has no intention of ever looking at gun issues except through the lens of dogma, then yeah, sure, firepower doesn't matter at the level of critical thinking, just at the fear level, for which there is CC.

so now we have turned the page to what a person carries,, not what was originally mentioned,

carry choices are as individual as shoe styles and underwear,

My carry rotation goes from 22 mag > 32acp>38 spl> 9mm>45acp, depending one what where and time of year,

CCW in this state say I can only use it to protect myself, or family, when all other options (flee etc) are exhausted,

years in retail mean I have learned to read folks, and am aware of my surroundings ,, so I don't fell undergunned w\ my Seecamp or High Standard derringer if that is what I have,

if you feel you need more firepower and need that glock 17 with a bag of 33 round mags,, go for it,

fact is, if it is legal in your area, and you can ,, go for it,


that still does not mean you need to legislate or restrict my or anyone elses right to do the same,,,,,

[togor]

Sorry if the point is too broad for you. At issue is how people think about guns, and regulation. Some facts underpin that discussion, or get overlooked, like the fact that firepower matters. It does matter. It's why guns get regulated to some degree, and why some people don't want theirs regulated, because they don't want to lose their firepower. If firearms packed the wallop of your average super-soaker then there is no conversation to be had. The point I raised is that kit guns skirt two of the pillars of the current regulatory system: S/Ns and background checks. The fact that the current regulatory system doesn't prevent ALL bad firearms outcomes does not change the fact that kit guns skirt these pillars. If they become popular enough, there may be a decision to make. At which point people can either accept/support regulation of kits like firearms, or argue vehemently against closing this loophole. Certainly one would expect criminals to oppose closing the loophole. And anti-social types who are laying low in anticipation of a day when law and order break down thereby opening up heretofore unavailable possibilities for them. YMMV.

[lyman]

you seem to miss the point that it is legal to build a firearm if you want to,

you also seem to think regulations should be based on the size or power of the bullet or cartridge,

how can firearms be bad? bad as in not work well, or bad as in do bad things,,, if it the latter,, then *****************sigh******************


how is doing a legal thing a loophole?

why would criminals care?


anti social types have been around since people have been around,, betting most of those groups are already on somebodies radar,,,, and what does that have to do with the conversation,

[Gun Smoke]

let me put it this way,

Gunsmoke goes rogue, takes his Apache he got way back when and robs the local 7-11

police involved, get called to scene, he gets arrested, sits in jail until the trial , hopefully the facts will let convict, and put in jail,
Gunsmoke serves his sentence, gun is confiscated as evidence,

film at 11, guy robs store, get arrested, next story

that would be the conservative point,, guy messed up, held accountable, punished, end of story

a liberal would do the same, as far as the police,

however they would have a picture of a glock or AR up on the screen talking about how gunsmoke went on a deadly bender
3 seconds on the case, 10 minutes on the rampant gun violence in the city, what are we gonna do,

guns bad, lets ask mayor (a D) etc etc,

big op\ed in the local paper about deadly high caliber assault fully semi automatics,

gunsmoke meanwhile, gets a liberal judge, is put in a program, and out on the street , since he was a confused person, maybe abused as a child, etc etc

that is the non conservative reality

if laws were enforced, policing done better, society and folks of a different culture , etc etc, did what was right, as in raise the kids right, hold folks accountable etc etc, then a lot of issues would be non existent,


your fear of firepower, and perceptions of who has it and who abuses it are based on an agenda,, and not a conservative one,

I hate it everytime that happens.

BTW my 66's are Mohawk Brown rather than the Apache Black.