The Planet of the Humans

[Vern Humphrey]

I was just watching Michael Moore’s documentary, “Planet of the Humans.”

https://youtu.be/Zk11vI-7czE

Normally, I have little use for Michael Moore, but this time he seems to have stumbled on something I figured out 40 years ago – “Green Energy” is a scam.

I looked at it like this – consider two identical cars, one gasoline powered and the other electric. Which is more “environmentally friendly?” The gasoline-powered car, of course.

The electric car has to have its battery re-charged, and the electricity comes from a power plant – powered by fossil fuel. But there are energy losses. First in transmission – you get less energy out of the grid than you put into it – and second in the discharge-recharge cycle – you get less energy out of the battery than you put into it.

That’s true across the board – all forms of “green energy” add up to a net increase in pollutants.

But what do we expect? The Green movement is brought to us by the same people who want to bring us Socialism – and that doesn’t work, either.

[bruce]

With respect, not all electricity comes from the burning of fossil fuels. In many areas electricity is generated by water power. In some locales, generators are driven by steam venting from the ground. Increasingly electricity is being generated by making use of the Sun and wind. There are some efforts to use the movement of waves to generate electricity. Sincerely. bruce.

[Vern Humphrey]

With respect, not all electricity comes from the burning of fossil fuels. In many areas electricity is generated by water power. In some locales, generators are driven by steam venting from the ground. Increasingly electricity is being generated by making use of the Sun and wind. There are some efforts to use the movement of waves to generate electricity. Sincerely. bruce.

First of all, the overwhelming bulk of electricity IS generated by fossil fuel plants. Secondly, the point is made in the documentary that Sun and wind are net losses -- it is a delusion that we can produce "Green Energy" with less footprint than conventional fossil fuel burning generators.

[lyman]

solar and wind are not big suppliers in this area,
tho I understand solar may be gaining some ground on homes,


in this area, coal/gas fired, or nuke are the common

[Vern Humphrey]

solar and wind are not big suppliers in this area,
tho I understand solar may be gaining some ground on homes,


in this area, coal/gas fired, or nuke are the common

The documentary also makes the point about the cost of solar -- you'd think the silicone comes from sand, but it doesn't.

Added: That generator is just about the size of the one that powers my house.

[shadycon]

How much does it cost to recharge a car? I've never seen a recharging station. I guess living in the mts. we just coast down hill.

[togor]

One of the things that electric vehicles have is regenerative breaking, where the kinetic energy from the vehicle gets dumped back into the battery by letting the electric motor shift into a generator mode. You see the advantage this provides in hybrids like the Prius, with superior city milage. Whereas on the highway, the Prius offers no great advantage over gas only vehicles of similar size.

As Bruce says, we have substitutes for electricity, but not so much for the liquid fuel of auto engines. Alcohol and bio-Diesel are energy negative.

EVs also need higher quantities of copper, lithium and rare earth metals, the mining of which carries uncaptured environmental costs.

Yet burning petroleum like it's 1957 and not caring about what it means for the grandkids and beyond is how we got here.

[Vern Humphrey]

How much does it cost to recharge a car? I've never seen a recharging station. I guess living in the mts. we just coast down hill.

Same here -- but you have to pedal like hell to get back home.

[shadycon]

Mopeds!

[lyman]

One of the things that electric vehicles have is regenerative breaking, where the kinetic energy from the vehicle gets dumped back into the battery by letting the electric motor shift into a generator mode. You see the advantage this provides in hybrids like the Prius, with superior city milage. Whereas on the highway, the Prius offers no great advantage over gas only vehicles of similar size.

As Bruce says, we have substitutes for electricity, but not so much for the liquid fuel of auto engines. Alcohol and bio-Diesel are energy negative.

EVs also need higher quantities of copper, lithium and rare earth metals, the mining of which carries uncaptured environmental costs.

Yet burning petroleum like it's 1957 and not caring about what it means for the grandkids and beyond is how we got here.

I test drove a Prius once,

very comfortable, but handled worse than my 00 tundra in the corners,
heavy battery and skinny tires will do that,

very quiet even with the motor running,


and like most Toyota's not much wind noise,



dealer told me that he had several customers he sold to that loved car long term,

except their insurance went up,


due to speeding tickets, (yep,, speeding tickets)




I bought a Cooper S instead

[barretcreek]

Fossil and nuke is 'on demand'; wind and solar are 'use it or lose it' even with battery banks. The only way to make use of s&w (not Smith & Wesson) is to have hydrogen fuel production linked to the availability of the twinkie energy and use that for transportation. Which is a losing game from the beginning because you can't run a viable enterprise on an intermittent basis such as that. Sat next to the state director (Dem) of natural resources at a dinner lecture and asked him how big an area would be needed for a solar array capable of powering the U.S. He laughed and rattled off a list of states, one of which was Texas.

[Mark in Ottawa]

Auto manufacturers are putting billions of dollars into research to make the vehicles more cost efficient and to give them greater ranges. They certainly see EVs as the future and really the not so distant future. As pointed out, they are only feasible in a total system sense if the electricity is not generated using coal or diesel and if the environmental costs during production and disposal become somewhat lower than they are now. I suspect that as the vehicles improve, this threshold will be met in many, but not all locales. For example, Iceland generates electricity from thermal sources and is very inexpensive and since they have no fossil fuels, it will make sense there. Communities in Northern Canada are isolated and generate electricity using diesel so EVs are not feasible there. The US north-east and southern Canada get their electricity from water and nuclear so probably OK. etc. The big issue that I see is that the range is going to be a problem in areas where people and communities are separated and long drives are common. I understand that if you charge a Tesla at home, it takes a one hour charge to get enough power to drive 30 miles. That is totally useless if you want to travel to say, Florida. End result will probably be two cars per family. An EV for local driving and a gas or hybrid for longer trips

[Vern Humphrey]

The US north-east and southern Canada get their electricity from water and nuclear so probably OK. etc.

Of course the problem is water and nuclear power sources are maxed out -- no new dams or nuclear generators can be built. If we increase energy consumption by transitioning to EVs, the difference has to be made up by fossil fueled generators.

[togor]

Improved energy efficiency. Believe it or not there are people who stocked up on filament bulbs because they thought it was a commie plot. Then along come LED bulbs making the filament bulbs good for ovens and freezers and little else.

Plenty of rooftop space still available for solar panels. And jobs in their installation. I studied electric power in school years ago because I concluded that it could not be outsourced to China.

[oscars]

There is a businessman (John Kepler) who is an engineer and shooter who runs a large auto repair business outside of Akron. He changed over, first to CFL's and then to LED's and reported cost advantages. Most of the poultry growers on the Delmarva have long since switched to LED's for that very reason.