Military draft

[S.A. Boggs]

If it came back I wonder how males would react?
Sam

[Gun Smoke]

If it came back I wonder how males would react?
Sam

Those that said they would move to Canada if Trump won the election would probably, finally make good on their promise.

Illegals wouldn't sign up because they're not suppose to exist.

The question I have is with all the "women's rights movements", women demanding to be in the military and so forth, would they too be required to sign up at age 18?

[togor]

Imagine Trump running the lottery, drawing numbered balls from a rotating drum labeled SUCKERS.

[S.A. Boggs]

Imagine Trump running the lottery, drawing numbered balls from a rotating drum labeled SUCKERS.

Is it impossible for you to be congruent?
Sam

[togor]

What is this, geometry class?

To your point.... tough sell to both the public AND the brass.

For the public, the way draftees were burned in Vietnam left a bad taste in people's mouths. Plus the way exemptions were manipulated by some.

For the brass, all missions in the service are now predicated on motivated volunteers, not conscripts. To go back to draftees would be a huge culture shock for the services (Army and Navy primarily).

Potential benefits include a military that better reflects the demography of the country, and more deliberation before sending troops into combat. Possibly Bush doesn't get his Iraq War with a draft army.

[S.A. Boggs]

What is this, geometry class?

To your point.... tough sell to both the public AND the brass.

For the public, the way draftees were burned in Vietnam left a bad taste in people's mouths. Plus the way exemptions were manipulated by some.

For the brass, all missions in the service are now predicated on motivated volunteers, not conscripts. To go back to draftees would be a huge culture shock for the services (Army and Navy primarily).

Potential benefits include a military that better reflects the demography of the country, and more deliberation before sending troops into combat. Possibly Bush doesn't get his Iraq War with a draft army.

You have brought up many outstanding observations.
Sam

[Roadkingtrax]

Draft? Ha! You can't even get selective service to apply equally to women.

[bruce]

Simple way to run the draft. Apply it without exception to every single male regardless of their career goals, etc. No matter if they can get a full scholarship to play football, basketball, etc., no matter if they are brilliant in science, medicine, physics, philosophy, politics, etc., etc., etc. Draft them one and all. Require them to serve four years in the Army. As to the Navy, Air Force, etc., once the draftees have finished in the Army, they can stay or they can go sailing, flying, whatever. Girls could go serve in the Red Cross, etc. Same four years. Afterward, if they wanted to attend a college, university or trade school, then tuition would be discounted based on their years of service and the quality of that service. Sincerely. bruce.

[Vern Humphrey]

Simple way to run the draft. Apply it without exception to every single male regardless of their career goals, etc. No matter if they can get a full scholarship to play football, basketball, etc., no matter if they are brilliant in science, medicine, physics, philosophy, politics, etc., etc., etc. Draft them one and all. Require them to serve four years in the Army. As to the Navy, Air Force, etc., once the draftees have finished in the Army, they can stay or they can go sailing, flying, whatever. Girls could go serve in the Red Cross, etc. Same four years. Afterward, if they wanted to attend a college, university or trade school, then tuition would be discounted based on their years of service and the quality of that service. Sincerely. bruce.

The problem is this: In the late '50s, almost every young man could look forward to being drafted even though there was no shooting war. Kids didn't like it, but everybody went so they went.

In the late '60s very few were drafted, Most kids got off -- the manpower supply far outstripped the need, even though there was a shooting war. Kids who were drafted felt they were bearing an unfair burden, and they were right.

So if you reinstate the draft, you have to draft EVERYONE -- and yes, that includes the girls. We'd wind up with 35,000,000 people in service. What would it cost to pay, house, feed, clothe, equip and train all these people?

And what would we get in return?

[togor]

I know a guy who has a green card here, Greek national. He got a draft notice to go back and report to artillery school, then get deployed to Cyprus. Because he's been abroad enough years he can get out of it through paperwork. Fair to say he did not see this coming.

[blackhawknj]

The Vietnam Army was about 2/3 enlistees, 1/3 draftees. Its problems were not due to the caliber of the enlisted men but to poor leadership.
They were pretty fussy in WWII. Bodybuilding champion Dan Lurye was labeled 4-F-heart murmurs. The Germans in WWII had their "earache and stomach cramp " battalions, "white bread" battalions.
Drafting women ? Women-at least the feminists who claim to speak for them-want Equality of Convenience, on their terms.

[Vern Humphrey]

The Vietnam Army was about 2/3 enlistees, 1/3 draftees. Its problems were not due to the caliber of the enlisted men but to poor leadership.
They were pretty fussy in WWII. Bodybuilding champion Dan Lurye was labeled 4-F-heart murmurs. The Germans in WWII had their "earache and stomach cramp " battalions, "white bread" battalions.
Drafting women ? Women-at least the feminists who claim to speak for them-want Equality of Convenience, on their terms.

First of all, I was there -- the draft was the main problem. After all, voluntary enlistees by definition WANT to be there. It was the large leavening of men who didn't want to be there that caused the problem. I never had any problem with enlistees -- but with draftees, it was a different story.

In WWII (Source: History of the US Army in WWII by the Office of Military History) the Army had no clear picture of the population. They initially set standards few men could meet -- not realizing how few men could meet these standards -- and soon ran out of those men. They lowered the standards to get more, then lowered them again and again. By the end of the war, we were scraping the bottom of the barrel -- and these men were going mostly into new units, rather than being spread among existing, combat-hardened units where they could be absorbed and utilized.

As for drafting women, the rules are not set by the draftees. That's why they call it the "draft" -- you go, whether you want to or not. If we draft, we will HAVE to draft women. Failure to treat EVERYONE the same will create enormous problems.

Now to the question I asked -- WHY should we bring back the draft? What do we expect to get out of this exercise? How can it possibly be worth the cost?

[blackhawknj]

I like the scene in The Execution of Private Slovik where the DI tells them "You guys are the bottom of the barrel. But the heat's on, Uncle Sam needs warm bodies, and now the bottom of that barrel is starting to look mighty good."
I was there too, BCT at Fort Dix, Summer of 1967. I often saw little difference between draftees and enlistees, there was the problem of "judge recommended" enlistments, 8 weeks of BCT not enough to change years of bad attitudes, bad habits, bad upbringing. I saw no correlation between a high IQ, high test scores, civilian education and an ability to resist fatigue, hunger, heat, thirst.
In his book Vietnam at War LTG Phillip Davidson-J2 to both Westmoreland and Abrams-notes that "men who were deficient in character and intelligence became sergeants and lieutenants" and his book The War Managerstwo tour Vietnam veteran and West Point graduate Douglas Kinnard says the failure to mobilize the reserves resulted in "Regular Army OCS standards falling to the Calley-Medina level".

P

[dryheat]

-After all, voluntary enlistees by definition WANT to be there.-

Or go to jail or some other reason in some cases. Girlfriend got pregnant. I heard that was kind of the case with the foreign legion. Or it just might be fun to shoot people.
I'd like to see a draft of sorts to give these kids something to do. A CCC kind of thing; the Corvid Conservation Corps. With some discipline. Kids need direction. If you work hard enough you don't have the energy to worry about everyone else. You work for your team. 3..2..1..

[SUPERX-M1]

Foreign legion enlistees: OK, read just one article. Conclusion- You would not want to be in it unless no other choice.

Why do people enlist in us armed services? And, why do they not? Are the benefits truly sufficient to join? Don't realize what are getting in to? Would they make the same choice again?

Read one article (dated?), said that OCS school weeds out many and shunts them off to the enlisted ranks.

Had a friend in Navy,he decided he was not capable of carrier landings, they were not happy and sent him off to language school, then to river boat patrol, where he was shot up and had permanently damaged hands. I suppose that they could have sent him off to training for land based aircraft(if such existed ) or to helos, but.. they just wanted him gone.

Met a Naval Acad grad lt in San Diego Hospital in 1969,going thru multiple hand ops. Captain of river boat, one of crew was fishing w hand grenades, and one didn't go over the dike.

Read that us army has discontinued training, perhaps only at the basic training level, of hand grenades. Most did not know how to throw. I always thought the grenade attached to a stick was good tool.