January 5, a date which may well live in infamy ...

[lyman]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe

You didn't know?

your own link does not corroborate your assertions,,,,,

[togor]

your own link does not corroborate your assertions,,,,,

You could have looked it up but too much work.

https://www.bibalex.org/SCIplanet/en/Article/Details?id=5198

Arabs introduced the astrolabe to the European continent through Andalusia in the 11th century. The tool carried the knowledge of Muslim scientists and greatly affected astronomy studies in Medieval Europe, contributing to modern scientific progress.

[clintonhater]

You didn't know?

YOU didn't know the Vikings traversed the turbulent North Atlantic to colonize Iceland, Greenland, Nova Scotia, without this device? Not to mention raiding as far as North Africa & Sicily?

REMEMBER, he's bringing this up ONLY as an excuse to glorify a non-European culture--the same one, by the way, that continued slave-trading well into the 20th Cent!

[togor]

YOU didn't know the Vikings traversed the turbulent North Atlantic to colonize Iceland, Greenland, Nova Scotia, without this device? Not to mention raiding as far as North Africa & Sicily?

REMEMBER, he's bringing this up ONLY as an excuse to glorify a non-European culture--the same one, by the way, that continued slave-trading well into the 20th Cent!

The Norse did range beyond site of shore, were able mariners, but this was Iberia's hour, in the history of the European continent. Geography, and technology they got from a non-European civilization. If that bone sticks in your throat then get this....gunpowder came from the China trade.

The Norse settled in Greenland, but couldn't adapt to changing climatic conditions as well as the Inuit, with whom they had very little contact. One group died out, one did not.

[clintonhater]

If that bone sticks in your throat then get this....gunpowder came from the China trade.

Chinks used it for for fireworks, Europeans invented firearms.

[lyman]

the arabs or muslims, did manage to maintain and expand upon the science that was already in the areas they conquered after the fall of Rome, (they did a great job of protecting the Greek and Roman libraries, and had some decent scientist,, )

then, as a result of the Crusades, a lot of the science that had been forgotten by Europe, or not known may be more correct , was reintroduced when the books were brought back from the crusades,

it sparked the renaissance ,


but the fact remains, the Arabs, who after the crusades were stuck in time, partially if not completely due to Mohammed, were given credit by you for a device that was not of their design,



if you need a good tutorial on it, watch James Burke's The Day the Universe Changed
it's an old show but holds up well, and actually teaches you something

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Chinks used it for for fireworks, Europeans invented firearms.

actually, the Chinese used it for an ancient equivalent of firearms too

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The Norse did range beyond site of shore, were able mariners, but this was Iberia's hour, in the history of the European continent. Geography, and technology they got from a non-European civilization. If that bone sticks in your throat then get this....gunpowder came from the China trade.

The Norse settled in Greenland, but couldn't adapt to changing climatic conditions as well as the Inuit, with whom they had very little contact. One group died out, one did not.

not exactly or completely true,

the arabs, as mentions, were good shepherds of Greek and Roman science, so one could argue that it was still European tech,,,,

[togor]

not exactly or completely true,

the arabs, as mentions, were good shepherds of Greek and Roman science, so one could argue that it was still European tech,,,,

The improvements by Arab scientists are their own. Just as CH would argue that the Chinese invented gunpowder but the Euros put it into cast steel cannon. The improved astrolab was a device that allowed Magellan to circumnavigate the globe, a feat beyond any Norse longboat. (Actually Magellan died in the Phillipines and only one of the 5 ships completed the journey)*

What is the foundation of civilization? Food surpluses. Without them, we're all just scrounging for our next meal (literally). The important food crops of modern life, where were they first cultivated/domesticated? Overwhelmingly in Asia (including SW asia, aka the middle east) and the Americas.

That's the problem with trying to superimpose a 21st (or 19th) century concept of cultural hegemony across the entire span of recorded history. CH does it because, well, everyone needs a hobby.


*cool fact about the first circumnavigation. The single ship had made a log entry for every single day of the voyage, with the last log being the arrival at a Spanish port on a Saturday. But the locally, it was Sunday! That blew minds for awhile in the 16th century.

[lyman]

sadly, you did not read your own link,


BTW, the chinese had cannon,, see the other link,

[clintonhater]

That's the problem with trying to superimpose a 21st (or 19th) century concept of cultural hegemony across the entire span of recorded history. CH does it because, well, everyone needs a hobby.

Is continually denigrating the accomplishments of European civilization a better hobby?

I'm not concerned with the entire span of recorded history, only that part of it called the "modern world," which is entirely & obviously a European creation--technology, art, music, all derived from the West. What civilization did the Japs set out to emulate when they realized their traditional, medieval culture, could no longer isolate itself from the rest of the world? What do natives from the Amazon to New Guinea wear when they can get them? Western style T-shirts. (Some may also be using cell-phones!) Does the world run on the ancient Chinese calendar, the Arab calendar, or the European one? It's idiotic to deny the modern world did not originate in Europe, & the extension of it established in North America.

[togor]

CH you take one slice of time and say: this interval is definitive. Time, history, flows like a river, and keeps going.

Euros proved that they're no less capable of forming civilizations than the asians who long saw them as nothing more than barbaric tribes, including the destructive side as well.

Of considerable irony, if you ask me, is that the greatest contribution of Europeans to the cause of civilization, the codified notion of individual liberty, if you will classical liberalism, is the thing you have zero use for. You like the fancy weapons but don't feel the civilization that built them and other things is worth fighting for.