So About The Taliban....

[Art]

Lyman, of course the Taliban are culturally conservative for their world in a turbocharged way. It's silly to argue otherwise.

I'll argue otherwise. There are 5 general levels of ideology from right to left. So starting from right to left they are:

Reactionary - Conservative - Moderate - Liberal - Radical

The Taliban are a branch of a Reactionary movement in Islam meaning they actually want to go backward. Like Radicals at the other end of the spectrum, they don't want to give you a choice in the matter, either.

[lyman]

I promised Pat I'd steer clear of mod wars.

You and Vern have to check each other, as neither of you made that same promise.

As for st--ges, you say it's in, Pat says it's out. That math seems pretty simple to me.

what's the math on you actually moderating a post?

and what does Stoog es have to do with anything?

[kj47]

Always has to the last word, Lyman. Always.

[togor]

I'll argue otherwise. There are 5 general levels of ideology from right to left. So starting from right to left they are:

Reactionary - Conservative - Moderate - Liberal - Radical

The Taliban are a branch of a Reactionary movement in Islam meaning they actually want to go backward. Like Radicals at the other end of the spectrum, they don't want to give you a choice in the matter, either.

Something to that.

Reactionaries on both extremes are the enemies of liberalism, because the free society liberalism envisions is at odds with whatever end point the reactionaries desire.

There is this idea "liberal ends by conservative means" that did a lot of good for a long time, IMO. But it seems to me that conservatives have gone away from that now to just anti-liberalism period.

Which is to say that conservatism in the US is much more reactionary now.

- - - Updated - - -

what's the math on you actually moderating a post?

and what does Stoog es have to do with anything?

That word xxxxxxx didn't put itself on the filter list, and I didn't put it there, and you didn't put it there, and Vern didn't put it there.

You're actually pretty good on enforcing name calling rules in general, so I think this one is just you needling me. Which is something you can do and I won't stop you.

[lyman]

you seem to have this odd habit of posting one thing and then spinning it to another,


taliban is an ideological entity, their existence and way of live is religion based,


the conservatives here are of varied backgrounds, varied religions, and are political conservatives,


you seem to struggle understanding that, or you are trying to insult the members here and US Conservatives in general by equating the two,



BTW,, still waiting for the good the taliban has done,, and examples of there type here in the US

[togor]

There is a reactionary element to conservatism these days in the USA.

Is that an insult or an observation?

[lyman]

There is a reactionary element to conservatism these days in the USA.

Is that an insult or an observation?

the way your phrased your comments, could be construed that you think one is the other, that would be an insult to many that are conservative in the political sense, as well as those that are religious

or that you don't understand what you are talking about

[Art]

There is a reactionary element to conservatism these days in the USA.

Is that an insult or an observation?

What would a Reactionary look like in the United States?

Among other things:

A Reactionary would repeal the right to vote for women and return the franchise to male landowners.
A Reactionary would repeal the civil rights acts.
A Reactionary would repeal the 17th Amendment and by so doing popular election of Senators.
A Reactionary would repeal Title 9, and by so doing cripple women's athletics (it's actually the Radical Left that's attempting that indirectly)
A Reactionary would take steps to limit higher education for women.

I'm sure if you dig you could find some people who think that way, but I personally don't know anyone who believes all or most of the above.

Today it's easy to find a Radical though.

[oscars]

The lessons of this debacle (20 yrs( should be to understand objectives and to avoid mission creep at all costs. The US clearly defined U.S. security objectives and acted rapidly and effectively with the right amount and the right kind of force to achieve them in the latter period of 2001.

Trying to turn Afghanistan into a democracy was not an initial goal. According to retire Lieutenant General David Deptula in Forbes mission creep will not be easy to admit, but it is necessary to recognize if we are to avoid similar outcomes in future conflicts. It also highlights the failure of the ground-centric, nation-building-via-a-land-occupation strategy embraced by U.S. Central Command and by a U.S. Joint Staff dominated by land warfare officers who did not learn—or relearn—the lessons of Vietnam. It should be noted that the initial punitive action of the US consisted of air power, a light footprint of special operations and the Northern Alliance. In order to get bogged down in the land centric mission, the US needed to emphasize schools for girls, road building and a myriad of civic action projects far removed from the original purpose of neutering the Taliban.

[lyman]

The lessons of this debacle (20 yrs( should be to understand objectives and to avoid mission creep at all costs. The US clearly defined U.S. security objectives and acted rapidly and effectively with the right amount and the right kind of force to achieve them in the latter period of 2001.

Trying to turn Afghanistan into a democracy was not an initial goal. According to retire Lieutenant General David Deptula in Forbes mission creep will not be easy to admit, but it is necessary to recognize if we are to avoid similar outcomes in future conflicts. It also highlights the failure of the ground-centric, nation-building-via-a-land-occupation strategy embraced by U.S. Central Command and by a U.S. Joint Staff dominated by land warfare officers who did not learn—or relearn—the lessons of Vietnam. It should be noted that the initial punitive action of the US consisted of air power, a light footprint of special operations and the Northern Alliance. In order to get bogged down in the land centric mission, the US needed to emphasize schools for girls, road building and a myriad of civic action projects far removed from the original purpose of neutering the Taliban.

Oscars,

do you think that besides the lesson not learned in Vietnam, that we (US Policy) forgot the lessons we should have learned from Iran?
as in we (US Gov't ) propped up a nation that did not last,

[togor]

In simple terms,

Radicals want uber-change,
Liberals want change,
Conservatives want things to stay as they are
Reactionaries want things to go back to how things were in the (real or imagined) past.

It's not hard to find examples of folks wanting things the way they used to be, beyond simple nostalgia.

That's just how it is.

[Art]

In simple terms,

Radicals want uber-change,
Liberals want change,
Conservatives want things to stay as they are
Reactionaries want things to go back to how things were in the (real or imagined) past.

It's not hard to find examples of folks wanting things the way they used to be, beyond simple nostalgia.

That's just how it is.

Pretty much correct except you can be a conservative and approve of a change that is well thought out minimal and necessary. For example I think most conservatives, at least the ones I know, approved of Title 9 giving women (including their daughters) more access to certain educational and athletic opportunities.

The fellow Lyman mentioned at his gun range would be a Reactionary, so would the couple who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart.

Radicals can be seen on the streets of The United States almost every day.

[lyman]

In simple terms,

Radicals want uber-change,
Liberals want change,
Conservatives want things to stay as they are
Reactionaries want things to go back to how things were in the (real or imagined) past.

It's not hard to find examples of folks wanting things the way they used to be, beyond simple nostalgia.

That's just how it is.

this is one of those times when RED would blow a gasket,

why?

because you make a statement, get some pushback for your comments, and then 'twist and turn' trying to get out of what you said,

still waiting for an example of a group that behaves as you mentioned in the US, ,

and waiting for an example of the Good the taliban have done,

[oscars]

Lyman:
You ask an interesting question about US and Iran. The Iranian oil fields were initially controlled by the Brits in the form of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. The democratically elected prime minister of Iran, Mohamed Mosadegh proposed nationalizing the oil fields to benefit the Iranian government. We countered by instigating a coup in 1953 (finally admitted in 2013) that overthrew Mosadegh and installed the Shah as the titular head of Iran. This coup was the basis of the revolution in 1979 and one of the bases of the dislike o the US.

[lyman]

Lyman:
You ask an interesting question about US and Iran. The Iranian oil fields were initially controlled by the Brits in the form of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. The democratically elected prime minister of Iran, Mohamed Mosadegh proposed nationalizing the oil fields to benefit the Iranian government. We countered by instigating a coup in 1953 (finally admitted in 2013) that overthrew Mosadegh and installed the Shah as the titular head of Iran. This coup was the basis of the revolution in 1979 and one of the bases of the dislike o the US.

you would have thought we (US Gov't) would have learned from that,,