How the Hell did Gen Mark Milley earn four stars ?

[dogtag]

He may have shown some smarts earlier in his career, but somewhere along
the way he lost it. As a General he could be outsmarted by a five year old.
He's not only Woke, he's stupid. After what just happened in Afghanistan plus
the subsequent stories about atrocities being perpetrated by the Taliban,
Milley hopes the Taliban will help us hunt down and defeat ISIS and Al Quada.
I'd argue that they're more likely to help ISIS hunt us down, or rather those
Americans unlucky enough to be stuck in that hell-hole - thanks to Biden.

[Roadkingtrax]

Thanks.

[togor]

I guess he makes Generalling look easy enough that anyone ought to be able to do it.

DT, don't look now but it's going to get worse. We're in peacetime again, when an ability to get along with the politicians is considered a more valuable skill in the top brass than warfighting ability.

Also, people shouldn't be too depressed. We used the half-decade after the fall of Saigon to refocus on the Russkies, much to their eventual dismay. So a period of peace can be a good thing.

[lyman]

I guess he makes Generalling look easy enough that anyone ought to be able to do it.

DT, don't look now but it's going to get worse. We're in peacetime again, when an ability to get along with the politicians is considered a more valuable skill in the top brass than warfighting ability.

Also, people shouldn't be too depressed. We used the half-decade after the fall of Saigon to refocus on the Russkies, much to their eventual dismay. So a period of peace can be a good thing.

this,

above a certain rank (Private) everything becomes political, who you know and who you .....

[BudT]

Ticket punchers have been with us for a long time and probably wont be going away either, no matter how bad they "F" up. Milley would be making rank not by ability but doin it just like Harris got where she did by thick knee pad and rug burns. Just because Congress says they are gentlemen and are supposed to be honorable doesn't mean they are.

[Art]

Unfortunately the peacetime army is not usually a good war fighting army and the army in the GWOT looks, too often like a peace time army. It's only when the fate of a nation truly on the line that merit rises to the top and you get unpleasant types who make up for it by being good generals; guys like Andrew Jackson, U.S. Grant, "Stonewall" Jackson, Phil Sheridan, "Black Jack" Pershing, and George Patton to name a few.

When Ernest King was made Chief of Naval Operations it was said "Now they send for the sons of bitches," how true. His numerous charter flaws and very unpleasant disposition didn't keep him from being pretty good at his job. By the way, the quote was attributed to King, when asked about it later he said that he didn't actually say that but wished he had. Other comments about King: he's got a steady temprament always bad (attributed to one of his daughters.) "That guy shaves with a blowtorch" Franklin Roosevelt.

[togor]

But according to his biographer King was more agreeable when properly lubricated.

[Major Tom]

In my time in the Army; I never knew or heard of an officer who actually earned his/her medals or rank. I knew one 2 star general who got his silver star for capturing a VC. When actually that VC was captured by troops in the bush and brought to the LZ to be "captured" by the general. As an aside note.....we weren't supposed to salute officers while in the bush, but we did salute the ones who were complete a$$holes hoping there was a sniper looking on!

[blackhawknj]

Milley is a product of the same idiotic "up or out" promotion system that produced Petraeus and before him, Westmoreland, Abrams, Weyand et al. The people who make it to the top in today's military have made "a career out of their own careers" and in a military that has as many 3- and 4-star generals as the WWII military an unscrupulous brown nosing careerist has a much better chance of achieving high rank on the basis of a much more puffed up resume.

[togor]

Why do you think "up or out" is idiotic? Does a service really need to be top heavy with Lt. Commanders or Majors who don't have the chops to advance? "up or out" helps keep the chief/indian ratio to something that makes some sense.

[lyman]

Why do you think "up or out" is idiotic? Does a service really need to be top heavy with Lt. Commanders or Majors who don't have the chops to advance? "up or out" helps keep the chief/indian ratio to something that makes some sense.

one company I worked for had a similar philosophy,

you either performed at a level and moved up, or you were forced out to give your slot to someone that would perform and move up,

that only applied to management, not the worker bees,

they had trouble understanding why you may need a career store manager, or a career co manager, or career dept manage, that had no desire to go any where up the chain,
and sometimes folks talked up a person to get them promoted up and out (as in out of the area and to be someone else's issue)


military is the same, you sometimes need a career officer, Sgt or Warrant that can excel in that position, and doesn't want to have 3 or 4 stars,

[Roadkingtrax]

Plenty of Lt. Col's in retirement. Obtaining full bird Colonel and above requires a certain amount of finesse, luck, and grooming.

[blackhawknj]

Vietnam was the first major war we fought with the "up or out" policies in place, we all know how that turned out. It was the bloody fiasco it turned out be because, as one Army general put it, "Too many brigade and battalion commanders were simply trying to punch their tickets instead of actually lead." The Army set the tour of duty for the critical position of battalion commander at only 6 months so everybody could punch their ticket, the result of that was what another Army general condemned as "superficial" and "ineffective leadership because many made a career out of their own careers instead of a career out of leading their own units."
Then there's the Peter Principle, where people get promoted beyond their level of competence.

[togor]

one company I worked for had a similar philosophy,

you either performed at a level and moved up, or you were forced out to give your slot to someone that would perform and move up,

that only applied to management, not the worker bees,

they had trouble understanding why you may need a career store manager, or a career co manager, or career dept manage, that had no desire to go any where up the chain,
and sometimes folks talked up a person to get them promoted up and out (as in out of the area and to be someone else's issue)


military is the same, you sometimes need a career officer, Sgt or Warrant that can excel in that position, and doesn't want to have 3 or 4 stars,

I know many folks who got 20 years in, with the military, as NCOs. So it's not rare.

Companies without unions often have policies to encourage turnover and keep labor costs down. Unions of course pull in the opposite direction.

- - - Updated - - -

Vietnam was the first major war we fought with the "up or out" policies in place, we all know how that turned out. It was the bloody fiasco it turned out be because, as one Army general put it, "Too many brigade and battalion commanders were simply trying to punch their tickets instead of actually lead." The Army set the tour of duty for the critical position of battalion commander at only 6 months so everybody could punch their ticket, the result of that was what another Army general condemned as "superficial" and "ineffective leadership because many made a career out of their own careers instead of a career out of leading their own units."
Then there's the Peter Principle, where people get promoted beyond their level of competence.

The Peter Principle is real. You have a point there.

But your description of Vietnam shows the difficulty that open-ended wars cause. GWOT had the same problem.

[lyman]

I know many folks who got 20 years in, with the military, as NCOs. So it's not rare.

Companies without unions often have policies to encourage turnover and keep labor costs down. Unions of course pull in the opposite direction.

how many officers do you know that are 20 yr vets and still a Lt?
my bestie is a Warrant, and was encouraged to go for a W5,, even when he was a W1,

he's currently a W4,, getting close to retiring, and does not want to go thru the hoops,



companies in the service industry , at least the smart ones, have realized that they are usually stepping stones for folks that are looking for or starting employment,

the days of retiring as a cashier after 40 yrs are over, (had an aunt that did that in a small town store)