The Establishment Clause

[togor]

...of the First Amendment is a firewall. It protects religions from each other by saying that no religion is allowed to get the upper hand through public institutions.

The current SCOTUS is all about weakening the firewall for the short term benefit of Christianity (or at least Catholicism!) But I doubt the long term wisdom there. In a world of multiple, incompatible religions, cutting one religion a break will just make the others want it too, and that ain't good.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/10/us/christian-assembly-huntington-high-school-west-virginia-trnd/?iid=ob_mobile_article_footer_expansion

[dryheat]

That's pretty wild. I didn't think kids would do that these days.

[lyman]

not sure how you are tying SCOTUS in here,,,,

[togor]

not sure how you are tying SCOTUS in here,,,,

The general tenor of recent cases. And of course "religion in public schools" was a staple of the SCOTUS docket for many years.

My belief is that the court's attitude towards religion is motivated by money. You can't run a religion without it, and if courts proscribe where religions can operate because of First Amendment issues, that limits revenue opportunities.

[rayg]

You seem to post mostly sites that do not allow any people feed back on their articles!. Wonder why as that's only a one way street! Is there a reason you do that! comments from people are healthy for a democratic society!

[lyman]

The general tenor of recent cases. And of course "religion in public schools" was a staple of the SCOTUS docket for many years.

My belief is that the court's attitude towards religion is motivated by money. You can't run a religion without it, and if courts proscribe where religions can operate because of First Amendment issues, that limits revenue opportunities.

money rules everything , and too many steps before the SCOTUS will weigh in , that can will be kicked down the road for a while,

You seem to post mostly sites that do not allow any people feed back on their articles!. Wonder why as that's only a one way street! Is there a reason you do that! comments from people are healthy for a democratic society!

liberals don't like feedback

[rayg]

money rules everything , and too many steps before the SCOTUS will weigh in , that can will be kicked down the road for a while,




liberals don't like feedback

Yes they are mostly all Liberal sites and apparently called brain washing! Lol

[Art]

There seems to be a difference of opinion about the "voluntariness."

In Finland right now a preacher and legislature are being tried criminally for hate speech for teaching Biblical Christian doctrine on sexuality. A similar case was tried in Sweden but was thrown out on some pretext because it probably became a hot potato. The Finns seem a lot more hard core. I notice there are no Muslims being charged and their doctrines on sex are a lot more hard core; they also evangelize heavily. Of course the Christians probably aren't going to kill you over something like this. Schools in some lefty areas have regularly over the years tried to actively discourage religious expression and when/if it happens depends on the culture of the state. Here you can have religious clubs of any sort in the schools. The school I taught at had a 'Christian Student Union,' and The 'Fellowship of Christian Athletes.' It also had a Gay Straight Alliance. Seems like a solution to me.

The left has become increasingly "Christophobic" over the last 10 years. It's undeniable. There is now a clear double standard between the Christians, especially "Born Againers" and Catholics vs other religions, especially Muslims who can do no wrong. We don't even keep stats on honor killings, don't want to upset anyone. Jews are coming under special attention from the left as well especially in Academia.

There is a darn good reason for the establishment clause.

That aside, if it was voluntary it was close to the line. If the subject was of the assembly was not advertised in advance it was sneaky. However...CNNs reputation for at least shading things heavily is very, very well established. How is this different from providing prayer rooms complete with rugs for Muslim students and allowing them to leave class at the hours of prayer to use them???? Yes it does happen and it is using a school to conduct a religious service. The Texas AG is checking out an instance of this in Frisco, Texas Christian kids are required to hold that kind of assembly out of the building here and on their own time.

[lyman]

Art,

when I was at VCU,, the Baptist Student Union was across the street from the Gay Student Alliance,

VCU was very liberal then, and even more so now, (back then the nickname for VCU was Viet Cong University)
I'm not sure if either of those groups still exist

[togor]

You seem to post mostly sites that do not allow any people feed back on their articles!. Wonder why as that's only a one way street! Is there a reason you do that! comments from people are healthy for a democratic society!

Seriously?

Last time I checked the Constitution doesn't have a comments section either. Or the Bible, for that matter.

[togor]

Responding to Art, with an interesting wrinkle on how the clause plays out.

In the old days, say a farm country village in the upper midwest, with Catholics and Lutherans, nobody says anything if there's a Christmas Concert at the public schools, so long as the religious content doesn't rub the priest or minister the wrong way. We would see that in a 1940's movie and call that the Good Old Days wouldn't we.

But times change and some other religions move to town. Maybe a big refugee resettlement nearby from halfway around the world where Catholics and Lutherans are nowhere to be found, providing valuable labor for the meatpacking plant (so the newcomers are earning their keep in the local economy). Now suddenly that Christmas Concert exists in a different light.

It doesn't mean someone is right, or someone is wrong, or a religion is good, or evil. It doesn't mean the place is in mortal decline either. But it does mean that as the religious landscape becomes more diverse, a trimming of sails is indicated by the Establishment Clause. Just part of life.

[Art]

Responding to Art, with an interesting wrinkle on how the clause plays out. It doesn't mean someone is right, or someone is wrong, or a religion is good, or evil. It doesn't mean the place is in mortal decline either. But it does mean that as the religious landscape becomes more diverse, a trimming of sails is indicated by the Establishment Clause. Just part of life.

I actually remember those days of School Christmas programs, a little Nativity Scene, a little Silent Night. Those weren't done on School time which to me is a big deal. Today a lot of School Districts make money by renting auditoriums to Churches. Neither of those is the issue. The issue is equal access and lack of preferential treatment. Right now non Christian faiths often get special treatment.

I'm not a big one on trimming Constitutional sails, I like them full, we just differ there.

[rayg]

Seriously?

Last time I checked the Constitution doesn't have a comments section either. Or the Bible, for that matter.

Well that answers it!, how could I have not have realized that and now I understand what you mean! Which is liberal posts are on the same level those two are! One learns something new every day, Lol

[lyman]

Seriously?

Last time I checked the Constitution doesn't have a comments section either. Or the Bible, for that matter.

you are comparing the Bible and the Constitution to a News (left leaning at that) website?

[lyman]

Responding to Art, with an interesting wrinkle on how the clause plays out.

In the old days, say a farm country village in the upper midwest, with Catholics and Lutherans, nobody says anything if there's a Christmas Concert at the public schools, so long as the religious content doesn't rub the priest or minister the wrong way. We would see that in a 1940's movie and call that the Good Old Days wouldn't we.

But times change and some other religions move to town. Maybe a big refugee resettlement nearby from halfway around the world where Catholics and Lutherans are nowhere to be found, providing valuable labor for the meatpacking plant (so the newcomers are earning their keep in the local economy). Now suddenly that Christmas Concert exists in a different light.

It doesn't mean someone is right, or someone is wrong, or a religion is good, or evil. It doesn't mean the place is in mortal decline either. But it does mean that as the religious landscape becomes more diverse, a trimming of sails is indicated by the Establishment Clause. Just part of life.

I actually remember those days of School Christmas programs, a little Nativity Scene, a little Silent Night. Those weren't done on School time which to me is a big deal. Today a lot of School Districts make money by renting auditoriums to Churches. Neither of those is the issue. The issue is equal access and lack of preferential treatment. Right now non Christian faiths often get special treatment.

I'm not a big one on trimming Constitutional sails, I like them full, we just differ there.

so back in the 40's, Uncle Joe and Aunt Kate live down in Petticoat Junction and it is expected to have the Nativity Scene at the Courthouse or Town Square, maybe a prayer at school, since everyone there is some form of Protestant or Catholic,

then the 70's come along and someone gets bent cause the Wiccan's are excluded, or the atheist is made just cause they all seem to be, and the ACLU steps in and demands separation of Church and State


which gets the P's and C's bent, but the world moves on,



now some community reverts back to the prayer's and what nots, and some other ethnic group (likely recently imported) gets bent, and we are back to the 70's again?




SCOTUS has already ruled on this , years ago IIRC, so why think it will pop back up and be ruled on again?