The Ukraine

[RED]

How we helped train the Ukraine AF to fight the Russians. Under a different leader our F-16s (F-15s in 2018) were in the Ukraine teaching the Ukrainian AF on site tactics needed to compete with the Russians. But that was when Republicans including Romney were warning of the dangers of the Russians.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/44965/u-s-f-15-pilot-on-what-it-is-like-fighting-against-ukraines-fighter-pilots

And more:

In recent years, most 'Eastern Bloc' representation at European and some American airshows have involved Ukrainian Air Force. They have been widely considered one of the top acrobatic display teams, often overlooked with a Western 'not invented here' reluctance. At a 90s airshow at Forbes field, a Ukrainian Su-27 gave thrilling display, and some rides ... for a steep price. Most of the "I flew a MiG" articles in the popular pilot videos and mags involved buy-a-ride trips to the Ukraine.

Top Gun made a trip to Germany just after the fall of the wall, and did some serious ACM comparison with former East German MiG-29 crews, trained in East Bloc tactics. This has continued with Eastern European and Mid-East nations, and has involved newer 4th Gen Soviet aircraft and systems.

[kj47]

Dont agree much with Romney but he was spot on om this.

[togor]

With the war moving past the initial phase I think the Polish MiGs need a Ukrainian paint job. And no need to put it in the press, just make it happen!

[bruce]

I think the Polish MiGs need a Ukrainian paint job. And no need to put it in the press, just make it happen! Agree 100%! Sincerely. bruce.

[Allen]

I think the Polish MiGs need a Ukrainian paint job. And no need to put it in the press, just make it happen! Agree 100%! Sincerely. bruce.

That can't just be hidden. Suddenly the Ukraine has an extra 26-29 (or so) Migs and Poland has a small fleet of F-16's that they want the U.S. to supply to replace their old migs.

Except for the underground facility's there's eyes everywhere.

Though Russia would declare this as an act of American/Western involvement I see it no different than the billions of dollars we are already pouring in with aid and weapons to help the Ukrainians.

[togor]

Who cares what Putin thinks. More weapons in Ukrainian hands to kill Russians.

[lyman]

Who cares what Putin thinks. More weapons in Ukrainian hands to kill Russians.

changed your mind? you were scared to death of Putin and his Nukes not long ago,

Allen has a valid point, you cannot hide much now, too many satellites etc and even social media,

however if we did a private transaction, or one thru nato, with poland, and they sold or gave away the MIGs with out our help,

[dryheat]

We'd still get caught because of what you just mentioned.

Togor might be way left and liberal, but he's no hippie.

[togor]

changed your mind? you were scared to death of Putin and his Nukes not long ago,

Allen has a valid point, you cannot hide much now, too many satellites etc and even social media,

however if we did a private transaction, or one thru nato, with poland, and they sold or gave away the MIGs with out our help,

DT is the guy scared of Putin's nukes.

I don't ignore them but accept that it's not our call if he uses them or not.

In the KW, Stalin sent his pilots into action north of the parallel. He didn't do it publicly but both sides knew it was happening. They had to limit their ops so as to not get captured by UN forces when shot down.

By that standard sending jets for Ukrainian pilots to fly bends none of the rules of superpower proxy wars.

FWIW this is the first time IIRC that we've been on the side of the freedom fighters in one of these wars. The GOP neocon instinct is to Americanize the war, which I think would be a mistake. Biden can certainly have a personal rooting interest and arm the Ukes to the teeth, but per the unwritten rules it's their fight to have.

- - - Updated - - -

We'd still get caught because of what you just mentioned.

Togor might be way left and liberal, but he's no hippie.

Not way left by normal reasoning. Just looks that way to a group of people determined to out-crazy each other on the right fringe

[lyman]

DT is the guy scared of Putin's nukes.

I don't ignore them but accept that it's not our call if he uses them or not.

In the KW, Stalin sent his pilots into action north of the parallel. He didn't do it publicly but both sides knew it was happening. They had to limit their ops so as to not get captured by UN forces when shot down.

By that standard sending jets for Ukrainian pilots to fly bends none of the rules of superpower proxy wars.

FWIW this is the first time IIRC that we've been on the side of the freedom fighters in one of these wars. The GOP neocon instinct is to Americanize the war, which I think would be a mistake. Biden can certainly have a personal rooting interest and arm the Ukes to the teeth, but per the unwritten rules it's their fight to have.

- - - Updated - - -



Not way left by normal reasoning. Just looks that way to a group of people determined to out-crazy each other on the right fringe

you may want to revisit some of your previous posts,,,


and you still can only see black/white, R/D, etc,

GOP neocon??

you make the assumption that the war hawks are all R,,,, when it comes to Gov't contracts, there is no party

[togor]

you may want to revisit some of your previous posts,,,


and you still can only see black/white, R/D, etc,

GOP neocon??

you make the assumption that the war hawks are all R,,,, when it comes to Gov't contracts, there is no party

Start understanding my posts!!! They are full of nuance. In this case, where the line is when it comes to helping Ukraine beat Putin. But whether or not we want to see Putin lose? No grey there. Nope.

You think of yourself as Mr. Open-Minded while simultaneously dismissing web sites that disagree with your preferred narrative that nothing is how you don't want it to be. The framing of 'GOP neocons' comes from within the GOP, per the article. But in general we would be talking about the people in W's WH in case your memory is fading.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...ussia-00022419

Americanizing the war is mistake. The reflex of the neocons to see Putin lose is generally on the right side of the issue as compared to the "little America" types. But again this cannot become America's War.

[lyman]

Start understanding my posts!!! They are full of nuance. In this case, where the line is when it comes to helping Ukraine beat Putin. But whether or not we want to see Putin lose? No grey there. Nope.

You think of yourself as Mr. Open-Minded while simultaneously dismissing web sites that disagree with your preferred narrative that nothing is how you don't want it to be. The framing of 'GOP neocons' comes from within the GOP, per the article. But in general we would be talking about the people in W's WH in case your memory is fading.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazi...ussia-00022419

Americanizing the war is mistake. The reflex of the neocons to see Putin lose is generally on the right side of the issue as compared to the "little America" types. But again this cannot become America's War.

your BS (that is a real word for your nuance,,,,,,) gets deeper and deeper there Mr Headline Reader of Known Leftist Rags,

not dismissing them, recognizing them for what they are,, not gospel, as you do,

you still believe in 2 parties,, that's kinda cute, and sad,, when it comes to these things

[rayg]

Togie! Speaking of open mindedness, That Politico news site which you read and reference their articles many times in your postings, is certainly not open minded but is way out liberal in it's news and thinking! Lol

[togor]

Togie! Speaking of open mindedness, That Politico news site which you read and reference their articles many times in your postings, is certainly not open minded but is way out liberal in it's news and thinking! Lol

Read it or don't, I care not.

However, if someone can't read it because of the web site, then what business do they have accusing others for being close-minded?

Right, Ray?????

[lyman]

Read it or don't, I care not.

However, if someone can't read it because of the web site, then what business do they have accusing others for being close-minded?

Right, Ray?????

nope,, not at all,


gloss thru it knowing that most of not all is going to be left leaning, so why bother.....