Ukraine and the West

[togor]

It's interesting to watch the players now, 6 weeks in.

Smaller countries who think they could be next are stepping up. Determined self-interest.

Hungary is useless. Budapest like Moscow and Belgrade has memories of past glories, and the loss of them, to be blamed on the West.

France and Germany are mostly useless. For all the claimed French love of liberty, they have no experience fighting for the liberation of others as a matter of principle. Same for Germany. They see themselves as a beacon of peace, in a land made safe by others. When the Italians show more backbone than the Germans, you know things are bad.

Once again it's the Anglo-Americans leading the way! They're the ones best able to understand the stakes, and what is needed for the moment. And yes Franco-German dithering is annoying but at the same time they're not obstructing aid into Ukraine.

I firmly believe our defense dollars are multiplied with bases in the E. Atlantic and in Europe. Trying to defend ourselves from our shores, given our international resource needs, would be a collosal mistake.

And yet it may be that the future of NATO is in the north, and east. That the "A" comes to stand for "Arctic" or something to that effect.

[bruce]

We have to play the hand that is dealt. Had NATO not been just a paper defense, this particular fiasco would likely have died sputtering. In many ways it has a spooky similarity to how Germany slowly gained so much territory w/o any real effort beyond bluster and bluff. Hatred, resentment, wanting to recover what was lost in defeat ala 1918 ... seems like old times with putin wanting to reconstruct the failed empire of his younger years. Someone other than a Chamberlin would have been needed to stop what is now a political and social cancer spreading from moscow. Sincerely. bruce.

[Vern Humphrey]

We have to play the hand that is dealt. Had NATO not been just a paper defense, this particular fiasco would likely have died sputtering. In many ways it has a spooky similarity to how Germany slowly gained so much territory w/o any real effort beyond bluster and bluff. Hatred, resentment, wanting to recover what was lost in defeat ala 1918 ... seems like old times with putin wanting to reconstruct the failed empire of his younger years. Someone other than a Chamberlin would have been needed to stop what is now a political and social cancer spreading from moscow. Sincerely. bruce.

If our President had taken action when he first told us Russia was going to invade the Ukraine, there would have been no invasion.

[togor]

If our President had taken action when he first told us Russia was going to invade the Ukraine, there would have been no invasion.

What action, specifically? Since you are so certain, tell us what he could have done so we can debate the merits of your claim.

[Vern Humphrey]

What action, specifically? Since you are so certain, tell us what he could have done so we can debate the merits of your claim.

I'll answer you this one time, since you appear not to be following the argument.

He should have done BEFORE the invasion -- back around July -- what he did after it was too late.

[lyman]

interestiing comments on the French

esp since they helped us quite a bit

[RED]

Wow! There are several things Biden did that insured the invasion. He voluntarily ended our energy independence, he dropped the sanctions on Nord Stream 2 allowing it to be completed and he is negotiating a Nuclear program with Iran with his friend Vlad helping.

Germany has just
sanctioned Nord Stream 2 but is still getting 32% of it?s natural gas from Russia via the pipeline through Ukraine. So Germany is paying for the invasion? Biden could stop that in a NY minute if he wanted to.

[lyman]

It's interesting to watch the players now, 6 weeks in.

Smaller countries who think they could be next are stepping up. Determined self-interest.

Hungary is useless. Budapest like Moscow and Belgrade has memories of past glories, and the loss of them, to be blamed on the West.

France and Germany are mostly useless. For all the claimed French love of liberty, they have no experience fighting for the liberation of others as a matter of principle. Same for Germany. They see themselves as a beacon of peace, in a land made safe by others. When the Italians show more backbone than the Germans, you know things are bad.

Once again it's the Anglo-Americans leading the way! They're the ones best able to understand the stakes, and what is needed for the moment. And yes Franco-German dithering is annoying but at the same time they're not obstructing aid into Ukraine.

I firmly believe our defense dollars are multiplied with bases in the E. Atlantic and in Europe. Trying to defend ourselves from our shores, given our international resource needs, would be a collosal mistake.

And yet it may be that the future of NATO is in the north, and east. That the "A" comes to stand for "Arctic" or something to that effect.

so

would the TLR be the US AND Nato need to get more involved now?

[togor]

I'll answer you this one time, since you appear not to be following the argument.

He should have done BEFORE the invasion -- back around July -- what he did after it was too late.

July was way before the Russian buildup. Any sudden arms buildup then would have been seen in Europe as provocation. But that aside, if retroactive clairvoyance is expected, what is special about July 2021? Why not be loading up in summer 2020?

Afghanistan? Maybe. That's the strongest argument. But Russia invaded Ukraine, not Afghanistan.

The diplomacy we have seen was only possible with the buildup and invasion. Europe and much of the world was invested in the idea that this was a feint. That diplomacy was not fruit to harvest in July 2021.

The argument against weapons shipments making a difference is that from their operational plan, it appears Russia expected only finite resistance around Kyiv, that they figured the best units were in the east. They were, and still are. One of the real surprises of the war is that Kyiv was saved essentially by Ukraine's version of Minutemen, plus Russia's own problems.

So the best argument is the Afghanistan withdrawal, specifically media coverage of it, suggested a lack of American resolve. But to argue with certainty that this is decisive, well that is a leap.

[Roadkingtrax]

What action, specifically? Since you are so certain, tell us what he could have done so we can debate the merits of your claim.

He doesn't have an answer.

If Vern hadn't lost in Vietnam, Russia would not have attacked Ukraine. That logic is as good as any he has.

[togor]

He doesn't have an answer.

If Vern hadn't lost in Vietnam, Russia would not have attacked Ukraine. That logic is as good as any he has.

Most here have no doubt forgotten how '45 withheld congressionally-authorized aid to Ukraine before the famous Zelensky phone call ("I just need a favor..."). The aid was held up with no explanation given, then released, with no explanation given, the day after the news broke publicly of the whistleblower report to the IG.

The corruption aspect of this aside, it's hard to spin this anecdote as proof that '45 gave a sh*t about Ukraine. He clearly did not. And yet Biden is criticized with a straight face for supposedly not caring enough.

[rayg]

Not Trump Again!!!! Seek help!

[togor]

Not Trump Again!!!! Seek help!

He's part of the story too.

But you want him cancelled!

[lyman]

He's part of the story too.

But you want him cancelled!

no,, just would like for your references to actually have some bearing on the story at hand,

[togor]

no,, just would like for your references to actually have some bearing on the story at hand,

Trump withholding aid while trying to weasel a favor out of the new Ukrainian president isn't relevant? 2019 not ancient history yet!

Why wouldn't Putin conclude that Washington was too distracted to worry about? Trump tried to extort Zelensky and his own party shrugged it off. That looks corrupt, weak and divided especially in comparison to the United States that the Soviets faced.