USMC Sniper on James Julia Auction

[Deacon]

Good evening Gentlemen,

I saw this offering on the upcoming James Julia firearms auction, but I don't think there is enough of a description of the rifle to determine authenticity - for example, there is no mention of an electro-penciled bolt, which, it is my understanding, it should have. Any thoughts on what can be gleaned by the description that is provided, as well as the few pictures?.

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/3073-394/

Thanks in advance for your time.


Deacon

[clintonhater]

Re-read description--says bolt ser. no. "barely discernable." Most amazing part, I think--still has scope tube.

Go to it, Fat Cats.

[cplnorton]

Yeah nothing looks right on it, except the scope and can. Sorry to say it's a clone.

But the scope and can are real though. And that's an easy 5-6k just for those two pieces alone depending on the buyer.

[clintonhater]

Yeah nothing looks right on it, except the scope and can. Sorry to say it's a clone.

Just out of curiosity (as I need a new truck one HELL of a lot more than I need this or any similar rifle), what makes it so obvious that it's not "unquestionably original and correct"? I don't see the right cartouches, but what else?

Seriously, if it's phoniness is THAT obvious, somebody ought to inform Julia, lest this imposture be accepted as correct.

[cplnorton]

There are certain traits that you see that are pretty easy to pick out. The easiest to see is the bolt finish. The bolts were SA NM polished and then blued, and it just makes a distinct finish that is not seen on another rifle. But that is just one thing. When you look over the whole rifle, it is missing all the easy traits to see.

On the stock missing the cartouche, that isn't a really important thing on the Unertl snipers. When you read the Marine docs on the team rifles they were built on, it was very common they were restocked. So you really don't see many with a SA cartouche, but I do know of a few out there with them. The Marines did modify their stocks on them in a way that you can see.

This one even if you couldn't see it, to see it's missing the traits. When you read the Marine team and sniper docs, you can pretty much eliminate this one by the serial number alone.

On informing the auction house, man I hate to say it, but I've never seen a real one sell through a auction house yet. There really aren't many real ones out there, and when a known one sells it usually sells among top collectors, and most of the guys are pretty private about them.

[Big Larry]

I don't like the position of the rear scope base. I have owned 3 of these rifles and documented many more and all had the rear base all the way forward. Big Larry

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

It's good to hear from you, Big Larry. All the authenticate USMC A5 scoped sniper rifles I have seen also had the rear base all the way forward. I suspect the jig they used to D&T 03's was made in such a manner that it keyed off the rear sight base.

Steve, I don't understand your statement about the serial numbers. This serial number appears to land about midway in the range of known Unertl scoped 03's. Is there something odd about this serial number?

jt

[cplnorton]

The Unertl rifles were built on former Marine team NM rifles and Special Target rifles. The Marine special targert rifles were just the Marine NM rifles that Philly Depot rebarrled at the end of each season, if it needed rebarreled. Once Philly rebarreled them, they became a Special target which were only used for Marine Divisional competitions or Elliot Cup Matches. Marine Special Targets were not used in the National Matches say at Perry. Except the Reserve team did use 21 rebarreled NM rifles by Philly in the final year. But that is another story.

But when my Buddy pulled all the Marine team documents for this time from the Archives, he found every NM order going into the Marines. When you add up all their NM orders you come up with that 1047 pool that they set aside for sniper equiptment in 1942.

The only possible shipment of NM rifles that went to the Marines, that this rifle could have possibly been in was the last one. But the specifions that the Marines requested for that last order of the rifles, basically excludes this rifle totally. Also knowning a good chunk of the last serials of that last shipment, and the details of that order, it just has very little chance it was shipped to the Marines. And that is without looking at the traits of that rifle, which don't in anyway look right.

I know some books say they did make the Unertl rifles outside that 1047 NM and Special target block, but all the sniper documents my buddy found at the archives, say totally the opposite of that.

So to me, for a Unertl rifle to be real. Before I even start to look at the traits of the rifle. It needs to fall into one of these NM shipments into the Marines, and it makes it even more clear if you have one that was rebarreled by the Marines, as the documents detail the only dates they got replacement barrels for the Special Targets. So serial range, and barrel date, give you a pretty good idea if there is even a chance it could be real, before you even actually start looking at the traits of the rifle.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Interesting. I know very little about Unertl snipers or match rifles, but I don't like the looks of this one either. From the pictures I do have of the scope roll stamp or engraving (I know not which it was), the "USMC" on this one looks odd.

Jt

[clintonhater]

Interesting. I know very little about Unertl snipers or match rifles, but I don't like the looks of this one either. From the pictures I do have of the scope roll stamp or engraving (I know not which it was), the "USMC" on this one looks odd.

Jt

I believe that part, at least, is "right." However Unertl applied this marking, it does not match the uniformity of the other Unertl markings.

[Ls6man]

Larry...good to see you on here again...

Here is a real rifle that I just picked up last month (finally..lol). Larry we documented this one back in the 90's...Not sure if you remember it..The scope is obviously not correct, so need to pick up a correct scope. The rifle is right as rain though. This one falls into the last shipment to the USMC.

Greg

http://s147.photobucket.com/user/ls6man/library/1903%20USMC%20Sniper%201526846

[cplnorton]

That is still the nicest condition wise I've ever seen Greg.

Beautiful rifle.

[Promo]

Greg, once more congratulations to this rifle. Glad that you were able to buy it. And the fact that it comes with the fingergroove stock makes it very special too.

Steve, one of my rifles came through Cowan's auctions. John Beard verified it back then. It has a mismatching bolt (but electropenciled too), and the description simply said "consignor states that this is a USMC sniper rifle".

[Big Larry]

I had a mint one years ago. The only problem with it, was the stock had been checkered. Replaced the stock with a nice SA/SPG "C" stock and sold it for $4,000. Good price back then. Found this rifle in a rack at the old Sacramento gun show. These rifles have really gone up in value, but there are 99 fakes to one legit rifle. I had three, a lifetime supply, but sold them all a few years ago. No doubt on Gregs rifle. It's a real one, but to scope it may cost him well over $5000 in today's market, but then, the rifle is worth more than $20,000. Big Larry

[clintonhater]

Steve, one of my rifles came through Cowan's auctions. John Beard verified it back then. It has a mismatching bolt (but electropenciled too), and the description simply said "consignor states that this is a USMC sniper rifle".

A modest & appropriate description. Even something like "appears correct and original to the best of our knowledge and information" would not be going too far in the direction of shameless hype. But Julia's "fantastic...unquestionably original and correct," are the words of a huckster.