Sniper Rifles

[clintonhater]

It's pictured here: http://jamesdjulia.com/item/3076-394/

Fabulous! (From this to the M.54, with it's BB gun trigger guard?)

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Did anyone else notice the changes in the listing for that scope case?

[Promo]

James, don't do this. Take a very close look at the markings around the patent dates! This is a British issued A5 scope - and I'm pretty sure it were the Brits too, who reblued the scope. Hence my interest in it.

[JRice79]

JRice79 - Magnificent collection you have there! Congratulations!

James

Thank you James.

[JRice79]

I've been keeping up with everyone's posts. I have not personally read any of the documents referenced nor would I know where to find them to do my on research. I do hope someone writes a book one day.

Million dollar question, do I have an authentic USMC sniper rifle or was it more likely an ammo testing rifle returned to the military in 1919? I'm going to pull the rifle out this weekend if there are any specific requests for pictures?

Jon

[clintonhater]

Take a very close look at the markings around the patent dates! This is a British issued A5 scope - and I'm pretty sure it were the Brits too, who reblued the scope.

You're referring to the 1910 patent date? I've seen this before, without understanding the reason for it, as the front mounts which bear it are no different from the ones with only the 1907 date. Do you know what the 1910 date refers to, or why it would have been applied only to export A5s ?

[Smokeeaterpilot]

I've been keeping up with everyone's posts. I have not personally read any of the documents referenced nor would I know where to find them to do my on research. I do hope someone writes a book one day.

Million dollar question, do I have an authentic USMC sniper rifle or was it more likely an ammo testing rifle returned to the military in 1919? I'm going to pull the rifle out this weekend if there are any specific requests for pictures?

Jon

Jon,

I hope my posts didn't discourage you. Others may be able to comment of to whether or not your rifle is a sniper rifle. I'm sure the consensus will be it's a genuine sniper rifle, however I am not the one to make that statement.

The data collected from the 1919 WRA documents are more neutral to your rifle being a genuine sniper rifle.

They do not make it more or less likely to be a sniper rifle. They also don't make it more likely to be used for ammo testing. Only the rifles contained within that list were used for that particular ammunition test. Perhaps there were more, but that wasn't stated in the correspondence.

Although, I can't state it definitively, I'm sure there are sniper rifles that exist around those serial numbers, I wouldn't doubt there are however, it would be more of coincidence since there's nothing linking the two together.

I was just merely stating that the WRA 1919 rifles mentioned above were not sniper rifles in March 1919. I don't think it hurts or helps your case, your rifle is just a sniper rifle that exists around rifles used for ammunition testing. That's what I meant the WRA 1919 rifles being neutral to your rifle's case.

You have a wonderful collection thanks so much for sharing!
Andrew

[cplnorton]

Jon,

From what I have seen, I'm in the camp that a lot of the info you see in books or online on the Marine A5 snipers, is not correct. It seems most of the known info in books and online today, seems to be based more off traits of rifles that are labeled as real by a expert, and not so much on the actual written documentation or pictures from back then. Reading the documents from back then and seeing what is written today, a lot honestly contradicts each other.

But if I say more it will just lead to a fight. But if you want to know my opinions of it, I would be more than happy to talk offline.

[Promo]

Jon,

while the serial number of your rifle is in a block of rifles shipped to Winchester, it's good that your rifles serial is not among them - because that would had ment by 1919 it was NOT a sniper rifle. But it doesn't exclude it from possibly being one, so a good factor!

When taking pictures of it, please make pictures of both the front and the rear scope base, the barrel markings and the bolt of the rifle. And anything that is unusual compared to other 1903s.

Edit: Clintonhater, you need to look closer. There is a broad arrow and crown marking right next to the markings on the scope rings. Broad arrow is left, other side is crown. Not very well stamped, but that is commonly found for the British.

[clintonhater]

Jon,

From what I have seen, I'm in the camp that a lot of the info you see in books or online on the Marine A5 snipers, is not correct.

Not many subjects to which that statement doesn't apply. Online is bad enough, but worse harm is done when misleading or incomplete
data is set down in black & white, because then it tends to be accepted uncritically.

[clintonhater]

Edit: Clintonhater, you need to look closer. There is a broad arrow and crown marking right next to the markings on the scope rings. Broad arrow is left, other side is crown. Not very well stamped, but that is commonly found for the British.

Hell, I just took that to be handling damage! But looking again, you're absolutely right!

I checked an old article I have which mentions the same thing, "British Sniping Equipment in the Great War," by Roger Payne. (Incidentally, before I read this, one of those British A5s crudely engraved with its rifle's ser. no. showed up on ebay--I thought it had merely been disfigured by some dopey owner!")

Still like to know the meaning of that 1910 date.

[cplnorton]

Not many subjects to which that statement doesn't apply. Online is bad enough, but worse harm is done when misleading or incomplete
data is set down in black & white, because then it tends to be accepted uncritically.

That is probably the truest statement I have ever seen on the internet. I know I used to be guilty of that. I would read it in a book and take it as the Gospel. Just by a fluke, I started to dig in the archives on a subject, and then it became a obsession.

The great thing is, you are seeing more and more people who are closing books and digging in the archives. Which that is a really, really good thing, as we haven't even scratched the head of the amount of info in all the archive locations. Half the boxes you pull records from, the researchers say no one has ever been in them. So you can only imagine what is laying in a box some where that would rewrite all we thought we know.

Heck smokeeaterpilot on this post, I have no doubt he will be the next Frank Mallory. I mostly focus entirely on Marine Corps documents, but he lives so close to the Archives that he is pulling everything. lol

[cplnorton]

Hell, I just took that to be handling damage! But looking again, you're absolutely right!

I checked an old article I have which mentions the same thing, "British Sniping Equipment in the Great War," by Roger Payne. (Incidentally, before I read this, one of those British A5s crudely engraved with its rifle's ser. no. showed up on ebay--I thought it had merely been disfigured by some dopey owner!")

Still like to know the meaning of that 1910 date.

I pulled all the US WWI documents from the Cody Archives as I was trying to find everything on the Marine A5's. But there is a whole folder on A5 scopes going to foreign contracts. I never pulled it as I was focusing on the US stuff. But if anyone wants to research that, get a hold of me, and I will point you towards it. God only knows what is in there. But I know I was told it had never been pulled.

[Promo]

Clintonhater, do you have a link to the scope with the engraving? Also via PM if wanted.
Steve, would be interested in that file. But can't go there so easy. Any other chance I could get those files? I know that the French also used Winchester scopes on their WWI Lebel snipers.

[clintonhater]

Clintonhater, do you have a link to the scope with the engraving?

Not for the one I saw on ebay, unfortunately, which was several years ago; it was so ugly (red paint smeared in the electro-pencil engraving!), that it hurt my eyes to look at it!

There's a pretty poor B&W photo of it in Payne's article, which appeared in Vol 3, No. 2, of Arms & Militaria Collector; don't have the publication, only a high-contrast photocopy someone sent me. Could copy it, but you're going to find resolution disappointing.