Sniper Rifles

[cplnorton]

You know, would you guys be interested in reading these documents yourself? Instead of just having someone tell you what is correct and not knowing if they are full of crap or not?

There is a group of us that for several years have been pulling out tens of thousands of documents. But the problem now is becoming, just the amount of documents is becoming too much. We had thought of maybe doing a book, but no matter how much you pull out, there are always more to go through.

The size of the Archives is something I don't think many understand. You could literally spend the rest of your life going through there and not find it all. And that is just one location. Then there are Regional Archive locations all over the country. So the amount of info out there accesible is just mind numbing, especially when new info is released all the time. And I would say 3/4 of what you find at the Archives either rewrites what is in the books, or is totally new info.

But we are coming to the realization that we will always be discovering new stuff. So even if we wrote a book on what we know know today, we could literally discover something new the next week in a new pull, that would rewrite it all. It happens all the time.

So we are now sorting of thinking of just publishing the documents themselves, not write a book, but start to do mass document dumps. So you guys can read it all yourselves and make your own conclusions. And we can cut out all the crap online and that has been published in some book.

The thing is we have spent a small fortune on finding this stuff, and we continue to spend a fortune on this stuff. So I think we would like to do something that would recoop some of the money we have spent, and most likely, the money we made would just be put back into finding more.

We have almost thought of finding maybe a subscription based website where you can pay a small fee and access the documents as we post them. That way people can go on there and read the stuff themselves. Our thoughts are, keep the price point very low, so you can bring in a Quantity of people. Instead of making it expensive and only having a few. That way we can just really spread the knowledge and let people read it themselves from first hand info.

If we could work out the logistics of this, which one problem is the amount of documents we have. I'm not sure how we can find something where we can put it all up? But if we could work it out, is this something you guys would be interested in doing? A low price subsription service where you guys can just read everything yourself?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The Marines did have 1903 Warner Swasey Sniper rifles pre WWI. I have the purchase orders were they bought them from Springfield Armory. The Marines must have had them for a while as they were requesting parts for them in the late 20's from SA.

I have documents from France in early 1918 that list both the Winchester A5 and Warner Swasey rifles in inventory over there, and both the Marines and Army were both pulling from this Depot. So it's possible. In fact the Army used a lot of A5 rifles.

But what you have to understand that everything you see from this time is usually not specific. 9/10 times when you see a 1903 sniper Rifle up to korea in Marine documents. It is only described as a 1903 rifle with Telescopic sight. So Telescpic sight could mean Stevens, Winchester, Warner Swasey, and then later on, Fecker, Lyman, and Unertl.

It's just us a collectors see 1903 with Telescopic sights and they say well that must be a A5. Because that is all they had. But that isn't true at all. The Mariens had Warner Swasey's as well. And actuall had them in service for longer than the Army did.

I think you will find the Corps used the Warner-Swasey scopes on Benet-Mercie machine guns, not 1903's.

jt

[cplnorton]

I think you will find the Corps used the Warner-Swasey scopes on Benet-Mercie machine guns, not 1903's.

jt

The ones I am referencing do say they are Star Guaged 1903 rifles.

[1903fan]

Thank you gentlemen, I guess I'm not surprised the answer is "complicated." The lack of photos makes perfect sense, such a horrible war.

[1903fan]

Are there any good examples of the Winchester A5 sniper rifle out on the web somewhere? It would be very intriguing to see one with modern photography.

[jgaynor]

You know, would you guys be interested in reading these documents yourself? Instead of just having someone tell you what is correct and not knowing if they are full of crap or not?

There is a group of us that for several years have been pulling out tens of thousands of documents. But the problem now is becoming, just the amount of documents is becoming too much. We had thought of maybe doing a book, but no matter how much you pull out, there are always more to go through.

The size of the Archives is something I don't think many understand. You could literally spend the rest of your life going through there and not find it all. And that is just one location. Then there are Regional Archive locations all over the country. So the amount of info out there accesible is just mind numbing, especially when new info is released all the time. And I would say 3/4 of what you find at the Archives either rewrites what is in the books, or is totally new info.

But we are coming to the realization that we will always be discovering new stuff. So even if we wrote a book on what we know know today, we could literally discover something new the next week in a new pull, that would rewrite it all. It happens all the time.

So we are now sorting of thinking of just publishing the documents themselves, not write a book, but start to do mass document dumps. So you guys can read it all yourselves and make your own conclusions. And we can cut out all the crap online and that has been published in some book.

The thing is we have spent a small fortune on finding this stuff, and we continue to spend a fortune on this stuff. So I think we would like to do something that would recoop some of the money we have spent, and most likely, the money we made would just be put back into finding more.

We have almost thought of finding maybe a subscription based website where you can pay a small fee and access the documents as we post them. That way people can go on there and read the stuff themselves. Our thoughts are, keep the price point very low, so you can bring in a Quantity of people. Instead of making it expensive and only having a few. That way we can just really spread the knowledge and let people read it themselves from first hand info.

If we could work out the logistics of this, which one problem is the amount of documents we have. I'm not sure how we can find something where we can put it all up? But if we could work it out, is this something you guys would be interested in doing? A low price subsription service where you guys can just read everything yourself?

I would be interested in subscribing to such a service or archive. You may want to repost this suggestion as a new topic so it doesn't get lost in the discussion.
In any case making the information available would be a worthwhile endeavor.

Regards,

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The ones I am referencing do say they are Star Guaged 1903 rifles.

Destined for testing? Or ordered in volume? I do know they were required to test the W&S.

Star gauging does not make a rifle accurate. Do they specify the limitations for the SG test? I am curious what Star Gauge results were considered desirable.

Your idea of a document repository for 1903 guys is commendable. I would certainly support such a plan, and I suspect you could make a business of it. I am surprised no one including me, has ever thought of such a plan before now.

jt

[clintonhater]

...the most common scope used at the time, ante bellum, was the Stevens.

Didn't know that, but it makes perfect sense, because Stevens was THE dominant US scope manufacturer until their perfidious stock holders (only 5 or 6 men, I think) sold out to NE Westinghouse in 1916 to mfg. the Ruski clunker.

[cplnorton]

Destined for testing? Or ordered in volume? I do know they were required to test the W&S.

Star gauging does not make a rifle accurate. Do they specify the limitations for the SG test? I am curious what Star Gauge results were considered desirable.

jt

There were multiple orders. They bought some for testing and then did order more.

The rifles were to be starguaged as close to .308 as possible.

[cplnorton]

Didn't know that, but it makes perfect sense, because Stevens was THE dominant US scope manufacturer until their perfidious stock holders (only 5 or 6 men, I think) sold out to NE Westinghouse in 1916 to mfg. the Ruski clunker.

Springfield Armory was testing the Steves vs the Winchester A5 scope as the replacement for the Warner Swasey, two different times before WWI. Decided both were not any better and then started to look at German Glass. Loved the German Glass, but then the war with Germany started. Which made them turn to the Model of 1918 from WRA. Which that was never completed in number.

There is a Steven's at the SA museum and it would fit perfectly to the 2nd test they conducted on them.

[1903fan]

So do no known examples exist of WWI Winchester A5 equipped sniper rifles?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

There exist relatively few known examples, and most I know of are in no-public-access collections.

jt

[1903fan]

Whats the word on them JT? From what I've gathered on this page form you fine gentlemen most would be about the same from 1917 made rifles an mounted with the special wedge mountings?

[1903fan]

It is wonderful to see so many of you out there have done so much investigating on this topic. I have several books on the Springfield, and the Winchester A5 mounted rifles are just barely mentioned. Bravo for digging further!

[clintonhater]

There is a Steven's at the SA museum...

I've seen it; also the Krag with a Cataract; and everything else that three all-day visits would allow.

And I didn't miss seeing that brick building where the greatest American MCs were built.