OK, Here We Go

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

(continued)

Scope case #7: Issued to Pvt. T. A. Stuckey








Scope #8: Issued to Pvt. John Kennedy





Continued in next post.

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

(continued)

Scope #10: Issued to Pvt. Gilbert C. Chandler





Scope #11: Issued to John R. Kurtz (one of the only two brother snipers)


There are more, including the scope cases of Pvt. Lester B. Demlow (#12 - misspelled in Senich, correction, that was Damerow), Pvt. L. D. LaValley (#13), and Pvt. Percival R. Burrell (#14), whom would all become instructors at OSD. So we can account for 25% or more of the scopes and cases issued that day, or the following month for a couple of them (the respective sniper rifle serial numbers are on the cases). Anyone want to wager that the other scopes, rifles, and cases looked exactly like these? Those 50-men were half of the 1^st OSD Scout, Observer, Sniper (SOS) class of 100-men held beginning 14 June 1918.

And this from Senich, and please note he is talking about the 8-loop “Penguin” scope case and Mann-Niedner “Marine Mounts”:



They total to 28% of the rifles issued that day. Anyone with even a modicum of knowledge of statistics knows this one is a lock, “documents” be damned. Particularly since there is only one possible example of a 6-loop case with no visible sign of any specific sniper on, or attached to it. There are numerous examples of these same 8-loop “Penguin” scope cases found over the net with no decipherable names. Promo has three of them in a single photo. By the way, any idea that promotes the notion that the snipers bought the scope cases themselves is idiotic nonsense. The Marine pay scale at that time would prohibit it, as would their remote location, unless Cuban made. By the way, all these cases came with their Mann-Niedner based (Marine Mount) A5 scope, which means the matching rifles had Mann-Niedner bases.

Continued in next post.

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Last One of Continuations

(continued)

They total to 28% of the rifles issued that day. Anyone with even a modicum of knowledge of statistics knows this one is a lock, “documents” be damned. Particularly since there is only one possible example of a 6-loop case with no visible sign of any specific sniper on, or attached to it. There are numerous examples of these same 8-loop “Penguin” scope cases found over the net with no decipherable names. Promo has three of them in a single photo. By the way, any idea that promotes the notion that the snipers bought the scope cases themselves is idiotic nonsense. The Marine pay scale at that time would prohibit it, as would their remote location, unless Cuban made. By the way, all these cases came with their Mann-Niedner based (Marine Mount) A5 scope, which means the matching rifles had Mann-Niedner bases.

Next is a picture of Gunner Steve Estock on the OSD rifle range with his “Penguin” 8-loop scope case (pictured above) over his shoulder (look under his left hand). It’s got to be neat to own a piece of history and have a picture of it being used “in the day”. Congratulations, Tom.



As I stated, the scopes had Marine Mounts, the rifles had Mann-Niedner bases, and the scope cases were “Penguin” 8-loop scope cases that appear to be made specifically for the A5. On the 6-loop side of the discussion, not a single 6-loop scope case bearing any name, serial number, or other information indicating it was assigned to any sniper rifle or sniper has surfaced in the last 100-years. That alone should be enough physical evidence to convince any reasonable person.

If you aren’t convinced at this point that the sniper rifles issued on 4 March 1918 utilized scopes with Marine Mounts in Mann-Niedner bases with 8-loop “Penguin” scope cases, it is my fault for a poor presentation. The evidence is certainly there, with a total lack of evidence for the contrary position. What you have seen is only a tiny portion of the data I have, but I am soaking up bandwidth.

Convinced - or not convinced? Either way, now you may understand why I do not accept the “documents, I have documents” nonsense; especially when those documents are never presented, presented in an abbreviated form, or presented only to individuals “highly regarded”. It is total BS, and no one becomes an expert by just collecting documents. I use documents also, but great care needs to be taken when examining any document to ensure it is interpreted correctly, and its “place in time” is understood. In the final analysis, no document can change historical fact.

Thanks to Jeff for letting me present this. Ask any questions you may have.

Jim

[1903fan]

Well Mr Jim, I'd say you have made a very clear, well thought out case sir, and one that makes a heck of a lot of sense. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the fruits of your research, and appreciate that there are no instances where "mental gymnastics" are required to come up with a certain conclusion. One thing I notice, those A5 sniper rifles the Marines got were sure close in serial number range!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Well Mr Jim, I'd say you have made a very clear, well thought out case sir, and one that makes a heck of a lot of sense. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the fruits of your research, and appreciate that there are no instances where "mental gymnastics" are required to come up with a certain conclusion. One thing I notice, those A5 sniper rifles the Marines got were sure close in serial number range!

Yes, they were.

Jim

[1903fan]

Well as a crusty ole vet myself, I'm glad this is all settled and we can get on with looking for new rifles out there that fit the bill as a Marine WWI sniper rifle

[clintonhater]

The 5 cases offered by WRA in the order of their introduction, left to right. IMG.jpg

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

In France with the 8-Loop Scope Case

I almost forgot about this photograph, which is of a 13th Regiment Marine Sergeant taken in France in late 1918. Please note the 8-loop "Penguin" scope case hanging from his left hip. As an added caveat, look closely at the eyepiece of the scope and you will see the dim light adapter attached to the scope. I can identify this Marine with no doubt whatsoever. The rifle has the Marine Mounts which means it has Mann-Niedner bases, and is a WRA rifle. I also know the serial number of this rifle and who owns the scope case and scope.
Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

The 5 cases offered by WRA in the order of their introduction, left to right.

Nice picture, clintonhater (me too). I knew someone would eventually find one. Looks like the "Penguin" is a WRA scope case after all and was around before the 6-loop!

Jim

[1903fan]

Very clearly a Mann-Niedner Marine block sniper rifle with 8 loop case in that picture, what a wonderful example!

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Niedner Rifle?

From the moment I first saw this photograph, I knew I was on the right path. The rifle on the far left in the stack has an A5 scope in Marine Mounts (Mann-Niedner bases). Check out the big, knurled knobs, and one can even see the tip of the clicker-pointer. I believe the Marine on the left is the sniper, due to his gear and position. His uniform looks dark in color, which I believe is due to newly issued uniforms (British French, AEF??) versus the others' sun faded duds. I remember we could spot a newbie in boot the same way. The snipers are probably fresh out of an English sniper school, which is why they have their Brodies. The date of the picture would be late 1917 as all the Marines are wearing Marine uniforms, canvas leggings, and their campaign hats. After January, 1917, the canvas leggings and campaign hats would have been gone. That would make this rifle one of the original Niedner rifles, as the WRA rifles had yet to be delivered. This isn't new ground, as I believe everyone concedes the Niedner rifles went to the 4th Brigade. As JB once pointed out, I think the Marine on the right has pilfered the Brodie from the sniper, as you can see his campaign hat just to the side of his right leg.

Jim

[TDP0311]

I'm having a hard time seeing anything but an M1903 scoped with an A5. Perhaps the photo uploaded a bit pixilated?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I'm having a hard time seeing anything but an M1903 scoped with an A5. Perhaps the photo uploaded a bit pixilated?

The photo must be less than a certain size to upload to Jouster, so some definition is indeed lost. The photo in question is available on the net in high definition. The picture is part of the Keystone View Company Set of 1917 - 1918, picture #66 in the set of 100. Grab a copy, and using any of the many photo manipulating programs, one can enhance the photo for a more clear view. If I post my enhancement, I might get accused of faking it. If you email me, we can discuss the matter.

Jim

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Jim that order for the 1000 Marine cases is one I own the copyright to, because it's actually my picture I took of the original document. I have not given you a copy of that picture, nor given you permission to use it. Please take it down.

I didn't want to get into this before everyone had a chance to read the thread, but sufficient time has passed. You are claiming a copyright of a picture of a document that is public domain that you copied and cropped. Good luck on that one. But just for the sake of accuracy, post your copyright, because I don't believe you. You do realize you have to apply for one, right? I posted a picture that had been transferred over the net to me. You can't prove that picture is yours, as anyone can take a picture of a public document.

Your claim that you can get a copyright of a picture of the wording of a document without having the copyright on the document itself is just BS. There is nothing intellectually unique about a crop of a document that is not held by the original document.

You have repeatedly published a picture that I took, and you don't hear me whining like a little schoolgirl. Grow up.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

That's All Folks !!

Sufficient time has passed for anyone to ask any questions they may have had about what I have posted. I am a bit surprised no one even asked the origin of the material, which I would have happily posted. I most certainly would have asked how I knew the date the rifles were issued. I had prepared a series of posts on the rifles themselves (pictures, and in some cases pictures of the snipers with their rifles - I did post one), but since no one was asking questions, this seems a fitting end.

At this point I believe I have presented the case for the 8-loop scope cases and the WRA rifles, so I will cease and desist, as these posts are a pain to do. There is still a host of info and data I did not present. Maybe next time.

Jim