Soldier or Marine?

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I initially thought this to be a Marine, but upon close inspection, I think he is an Army soldier. We know the Army advocated the distribution of scoped rifles into the ranks as early as 1903, but the A5 scope wasn't around in those days. Can any of you knowledgeable uniform guys date this picture from the uniform? The scope is mounted in WRA OEM #2 mounts on 6" centers, and the Army must have had hundreds of these scoped rifles, other than rifle team rifles. Why did the Army need the Warner-Swasey scopes for combat when they had so many A5 scoped rifles?



Pre_WWI Marine w_6inch Spaced A5 Scoped 03.jpg

[Johnny P]

The military began testing telescopic sights in 1904, and in the initial tests the Warner & Swasey was the only one they found suitable.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I agree, so why is this soldier holding an A5 scoped rifle on 6" centers? The A5 scoped rifles the Army ordered during WWI were on 7.2" centers.

[lyman]

that question is partially answered here

https://usmcweaponry.com/usmc-m1903-a5-sniper-rifle/

not sure if CplNorton is a member here, but he would be the one to ask,

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I respectfully disagree. I believe Norton's A5 story is hopelessly flawed. To be fair, I will post a version I believe to be more accurate. The readers can judge for themselves.

[cplnorton]

Yes he is Army. I forget his name and didn't go back to look in the files. But he was a famous competition shooter.

The photo was given to me by someone who owns the rifle in the photograph.

The rifle was never a sniper rifle and was only a rifle used in competition. He had documents of the rifle serial being purchased by the man in the photograph pre WWI if I remember right.

I would have to go back and find all my notes on this, which to be honest I do not have much desire to look up, but this was a team shooter and that was his competition rifle.

It's one of the most documented rifles I have ever seen to be honest from that time frame.

- - - Updated - - -

The Army and the Marines never used the 6'' spacing on any sniper rifles.

This is documented from the Army and the Marine side at the National Archives. It was considered too fragile in the 6'' mounting to be effective.

[cplnorton]

I thought about it and realized I'm doing a disservice to the Soldier by not posting his name as he is sort of being dis-respected here. So I went back and found his info. This was one of the most famous shooters of that time period. I just don't personally follow him as I mostly only study the Marine shooters in detail.

But the rifle in the picture is the one he used to win the 1910 Wimbledon Cup. The current owner supplied me with detailed pics of the rifle back in 2016. The rifle is documented by serial as the one he used, though I think if I remember right this pic was a few years after he won in 1910, but don't quote me on that.

I won't divulge the name of the current owner or post the pics of the rifle, but the own is a very famous collector and someone I truly respect.

I do see the info on the shooter has been updated on Find a Grave, so this is a really good read on this amazing man.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/169052871/guy-h-emerson

[cplnorton]

Oh and to the original question, the Army did not have A5 Sniper rifles pre the beginning of 1918.

They trialed about a dozen with this 6'' spacing around 1914 but said the spacing was too fragile. We have serials of all those rifles they tested with this spacing. One is still at the Springfield Armory too. They did not get anymore A5 snipers till the start of 1918 and they were 7.2'' spacing.

This 6'' spacing was never a sniper rifle past testing, which it did not pass.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Oh and to the original question, the Army did not have A5 Sniper rifles pre the beginning of 1918.

The Army had rifles on 7.2" spacing long before 1918. I don't think they were considered sniper rifles, though.

They trialed about a dozen with this 6'' spacing around 1914 but said the spacing was too fragile. We have serials of all those rifles they tested with this spacing. One is still at the Springfield Armory too. They did not get anymore A5 snipers till the start of 1918 and they were 7.2'' spacing.

Gee, whiz. Have you ever noticed those "dozen or so" rifles appeared just before the invasion of Vera Cruz? Coincidence?

This 6'' spacing was never a sniper rifle past testing, which it did not pass.

The Army did test various scopes, and I will never grasp why they settled on the Warner Swasey POS. The Army had been issuing scoped rifles to soldiers years before those tests. I admit I don't know what scopes were used, but those scopes were issued as early as 1904.

[cplnorton]

I'm sorry to say that info is not correct.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

I'm sorry to say that info is not correct.

You are entitled to your opinion. Have a nice day.

[BlitzKrieg]

Well, hold the presses. The manner of which the Army handled sniper rifles from Day 1 is a trail of broken information and truth be told, USMC not too much better in that regard.
Absolutes ain't absolutes. Today they are for sniper systems but in the years up thru Viet Nam War, it was an adhoc area of priority and records NIL.

So argue all you want, but attacking Norton because you got a different set of facts or opinions doesn't resonate nor does it impress any one. The military is horrible for record keeping and at unit level, we could not keep anything over 18 months old. Of course classified information had no such restriction.

[lyman]

Welcome back Skip,


stay a while

[Art]

[QUOTE=BlitzKrieg;651539]Well, hold the presses. The manner of which the Army handled sniper rifles from Day 1 is a trail of broken information and truth be told, USMC not too much better in that regard.
Absolutes ain't absolutes. [QUOTE]

That part is absolute: The official word on USMC WW II M1903 sniper rifles was they all had the "C" stock, then a pic showed up of a Marine sniper in action in WW II with an M1903 sniper rifle with an "S" stock.