what would you shoot?

[PhillipM]

The Marines didn't remove the springs, they ordered them without the springs, and for a reason.

jt

What was the reason?

[snakehunter]

The '03

[Jim in Salt Lake]

I have a high number Springfield 1903 I bought for these matches. Its receiver is drilled on the side for a side mounted Weaver 330 (no "C" or click adjustments). The scope is clear but the elevation and windage adjustments affect each other! What an absolute pain to sight in!! I've got mine sighted at 300 yards and will find my 600 yard zero at our match this weekend. I don't plan to make any elevation or windage adjustments, will use Kentucky windage/elevation as any movement of either sight adjustment totally screws up your zero. As soon as I find a decent deal on a used Unertl, Feckler, or Lyman that fits in the CMP rules, or Leatherwood finally comes out with their Unertl clone (ain't holdin' my breath), I'm changing out that Weaver. Maybe it needs some rebuilding/TLC, I would like to keep it, but I can really see why early target scope users stayed with external adjustments. So, to answer the poster's original question, no way would I pick a 1903 or 03A3 with a Weaver.

[George in NH]

Hi Gang,
I am in the early stage of building up a '03A4 for the 2012 Vintage Sniper Match at Camp Perry.
I traded for a "basket case" M73B1 and sent if off to Iron Sight for rebuild. They advise of a ten month back log (they have 1200 scopes in house already!). Anyway, I have a 03A3 that has numerous holes in the receiver from previous scope/sight mounts so I will not be altering a collectable rifle. Anyone know how to shim the rear of the Redfield Junior mount to gain more elevation? Based on the fine info here, I intend to ignore the short lines and zero at 300, hopefully making the "come ups" more fool proof for 600. I have several issue style "S" stocks w/handguard in fiberglass. I wonder if I could use that set up? Thanks to all, George in NH

[PhillipM]

I have a high number Springfield 1903 I bought for these matches. Its receiver is drilled on the side for a side mounted Weaver 330 (no "C" or click adjustments). The scope is clear but the elevation and windage adjustments affect each other! What an absolute pain to sight in!! I've got mine sighted at 300 yards and will find my 600 yard zero at our match this weekend. I don't plan to make any elevation or windage adjustments, will use Kentucky windage/elevation as any movement of either sight adjustment totally screws up your zero. As soon as I find a decent deal on a used Unertl, Feckler, or Lyman that fits in the CMP rules, or Leatherwood finally comes out with their Unertl clone (ain't holdin' my breath), I'm changing out that Weaver. Maybe it needs some rebuilding/TLC, I would like to keep it, but I can really see why early target scope users stayed with external adjustments. So, to answer the poster's original question, no way would I pick a 1903 or 03A3 with a Weaver.

I found in reading the rules that a Weaver k2.5 b60 (1" tube) is also legal. I have one on a 22 and am contemplating cobbling up an A4 clone for these matches. It's clear as a bell and has none of the adjustment problems you mentioned so you may want to hunt one of those up because they are still pretty cheap and apparently a huge step forward from the 330.

[jgaynor]

The CMP Rules for M1903A4's (including reproductions and clones) permit the following "Issue" scopes.

M73B1 (ed. militarized version of the Weaver 330C - markings, moisture proofing, adjustments)
Weaver 330C (ed. 2.75x)
M73B2 ( ed. The "French Weaver" made by OPL - exceedingly rare.)
M81
M82
M84

And the following "Non-Issue" scopes:
Lyman Alaskan (ed. The Alaskan was approved for issue on the A4 and is referred to or depicted in at least three different documents/publications. None were delivered in time for original production.)
Weaver K2.5

Later in the CMP Forum, at the request of some competitors, authorization was granted to use:
"any 330" (ed. presumably including the commercial scopes like the 330S and 330 Scope - M.8)

Regards,
Jim

[Jim in Salt Lake]

Hi Phillip, a "newer" Weaver would definitely be an option, better than what I have now. I've got the winter to pick over the options, I'd also like to put a new barrel on the rifle, too. Short term, our club's Vintage Sniper match is this Saturday so I'm using what I've got. One advantage of a target scope with external mounts is that they're more repeatable with adjustments than an old scope with internal adjustments, you'd be able to change elevation from 300 to 600 yards more easily. I'm planning not to raise my elevation adjustment to shoot at 600, I'll use the 5 sighters to find an aiming point high enough to get me on target. I can't begin to tell you what a pain it was to get sighted in at 300 last Saturday. As a comparison, I also sighted in my hunting rifle for an upcoming elk trip. Even with a new load (new bullet and powder) it took me all of 4 shots to get zeroed with a scope that's 70 years newer.

[PhillipM]

Jim, from my research the difference between the early K2.5's and the later K2.5 60-B is the B's recticle stays centered. There is an improved -C, I don't know what that is as mine is a B.

What is your course of fire?

Good luck this weekend, I'll be shooting vintage bolt with my 1903 MkI @ 200.

[Marine A5 Sniper Rifle]

Last year I had the privilege of shooting with the Marine snipers at Stoney Point. We had every sniper rifle known to mankind to choose from. After the shooting ceased, almost to a man, we preferred the 03A1 w/8X Unertl over any other rifle. These were all real sniper rifles, either active or past. The biggest disappointment was the Drugunov, whose accuracy was very range limited. The one everyone wanted to shoot once? The M1908 W&S equipped 03, which was deadly accurate.

jt

[PhillipM]

Jim,

Why was the spring omitted? I saw a Marine sniper at a local show years ago for $3500 and should have sold a kidney and bought it. A couple 03 experts now tell me the level of fakery is so advanced they can't authenticate one with 100% certainty.

[jgaynor]

Jim,

Why was the spring omitted? I saw a Marine sniper at a local show years ago for $3500 and should have sold a kidney and bought it. A couple 03 experts now tell me the level of fakery is so advanced they can't authenticate one with 100% certainty.

There is a paragraph in one of Peter Senich's books that suggests the spring was omitted "because of concern that sand might score the tube". Maybe but given the fact that a piece of grit could also get trapped between the tube and the plungers in the mounts I'm not so sure.

In his 1936 Edition of "Telescopic Rifle Sights" Townsend Whelen advised against using the recoil absorber spring in any rifle "having a recoil greater than about an 8 pound .25-35 rifle, as the pound of the backstroke is liable to damage the front mount." The proponents of the Unertl scope (first on the model 70 then on the 03A1) may have been influenced by this position.

Omitting the spring also allowed the scope to be pushed forward if necessary to clear the bolt.

Regards,
Jim

[Jim in Salt Lake]

Hi Phillip, Our match is an individual match, where as the formal CMP match is based on a team of two that take turns as shooter and spotter. We're shooting 5 sighters and 15 record shots both at 300 and 600 yards. For the record shots, targets are raised for 20 seconds for each shot, then lowered and scored for 30 seconds. Then they're raised for the next record shot for twenty seconds and so on.... There should be a wide variety of rifles there with scopes that you mention. I plan on looking through some and talking to the owners, I need to move away from my Weaver 330.

And good luck at your match! We had our Springfield match a couple of weeks ago, just had a ton of fun.

[fkienast]

an M1D, if I can get there.

[MJ1]

This 6.5 for sure.



Or this .303 as I have done well at 600 with both.

[rayg]

Just curious, as the longest I have shot was 200 yrds. But at 600 yrds, doesn't the cross hairs or post completely cover a target? I have several "T" Enfields and those sight posts are pretty wide at the tip, Ray